“Fucking”Geography:an interview with David Bell

“Fucking” Geography: an interview with
David Bell
Joseli Maria Silva
Universidade Estadual de Ponta Grossa (UEPG) –
Brazil
Paulo Jorge Vieira
Instituto de Geografia e Ordenamento do Território Universidade de Lisboa – Portugal
Fifteen years ago the British Geographer, David
Bell published a text in the journal Environment and
Planing D, Society & Space under the title [Screw] ing
Geography (censor's version). This title was the result
of editorial censorship of the original title Fucking
Geography, a paper previously submitted to the
scientific meeting of the American Association of
Geographers in 1994. This personal/professional David
Bell's experience was the subject of discussion in
another article published in 2009 with the title
“Fucking Geography, Again”. In the latter text, the
author brings into discussion elements that go beyond
the scale of his personal experience, making visible the
forms of power that shape the geographic discourse
and produce the alleged scientific truths.
Exploring the personal and scientific path of this
impetuous Geographer, is an exciting challenge for us,
geographers in places beyond the Anglo-Saxon world,
at the moment that we are building our own struggles,
in other space/time to assert sexualities as a component
element of geographical analysis.
David Bell obtained his Ph.D. at the University of
Birmingham in 1995 and he is currently a Geography
Associate Professor at Leeds University in Critical
Human Geography Area. Bell is also a member of the
Interdisciplinary Center for Gender Studies,
developing research in the areas of Human and
Cultural geography. David Bell, focus on urban and
rural geography, and approaches consumption,
lifestyles, technologies and sexualities in his academic
production.
The opening of the geographic academic context
for studies on sexuality was an arduous job, to which
David Bell actively participated, with important
scientific partners like Gill Valentine and Jon Binnie,
among others. Bell and Valentine organized the
volume "Mapping Desire - Geographies of Sexualities"
in 1995, which is the first collective work on
geographies of sexualities. Bell and Binnie wrote the
dazzling seminal volume "The Sexual Citizen - Queer
Politics and Beyond" (2000). The results of his
intellectual work, certainly contributed to the growth
of studies on sexuality in Geography.
The results of pioneering and provocative attitudes
to the established scientific fields are always,
paradoxically, composed of pain and delight. This
interview is about David Bell's geographic and
scientific path, merged with his personal perceptions.
J oseli Maria Silva and Paulo J orge Vieira:
Screwing Geography/ Fucking Geography was
the source of controversy around the forms of
scientific knowledge production, as well as the
power relations that involve the validation of
some approaches and languages in the academic.
What is your opinion about the results you got
from publishing these ideas?
David Bell: At first, the idea of “fucking
geography” was mainly a joke and a provocation. I
wanted it to be a bit offensive or controversial, as a
way to shake things up – specifically, to shake up the
Association of American Geographers’ conference,
where the paper was to be presented. I hoped to make
a splash. And, of course, the story got better (or worse,
depending on your view) because the AAG committee
refused to let me use the f-word in the conference
programme. So, after some letter-writing back and
forth, the paper was retitled, and that in itself became a
way into thinking about what we can and cannot say in
geography. And the title was a play on words, with
fucking both a verb and an adjective, signalling both a
desire to fuck (with) geography, and exasperation at
the discipline. The whole paper was originally inspired
by a great picture by Tom of Finland, which shows a
Revista Latino-americana de Geografia e Gênero, Ponta Grossa, v. 1, n. 2, p. 326-332, ago. / dez. 2010.
“Fucking” Geography: an interview with David Bell
man literally fucking the globe. I used that image, and
one by Della Grace, in my talk at the AAG.
Anyway, some people say they like the paper, and
it did get some attention because of the title – the
conference session was packed out. But in the end, it’s
known more for that one word than for the rest of what
I was trying to say. The paper itself was just the start of
an engagement with queer theory and politics, really –
maybe part of the ambivalent process of queering
geography. Like I said, a joke and a provocation.
So I was pleased to revisit it in “Fucking
Geography, Again”, and to be able to reassess the
incident and the aftermath, as well as considering the
broader project of fucking geography. But in terms of
the impact on the discipline, it’s negligible. Any
“shock” was soon absorbed; I was invited to publish a
version of the paper in a mainstream (if sometimes
“edgy”) journal, and then that was that. I don’t think it
really opened up a space to debate issues such as
language or what’s appropriate to talk about in an
academic context –that debate was being had all
around, anyway. Geography retains a squeamishness,
as Bob McNee put it. I wanted to draw attention to
that, to toy with it a bit. A lot of my earlier work was
like that, to be honest. The question, therefore,
remains: was geography fucked? I’m not sure it was.
J MS and PJ V: Landowners were the focus of
interest in your masters and doctoral studies.
How did sexuality begin to attract your
intellectual attention?
DB: Well, my early career was a series of
accidents; I never intended to become an academic, but
ended up falling into it. I got a job teaching geography
part-time at my local polytechnic, and was offered the
chance to study for an MPhil at the same time. I started
working on landownership on the advice of my extutor, the great historical geographer Tony Phillips. I
think he really wanted my findings, but didn’t have
time to sit in the archives for months on end
reassembling the patterns of landownership. It was a
very enjoyable and straightforward Ph.D., with lots of
maps. I may return to the topic in my old age!
Anyway, I had mainly studied physical geography
before – I was destined to become a scientist, and in
fact really wanted to be a geologist, but that’s another
story... I certainly had never thought about sexuality as
a topic in geography, and never came across it as an
undergraduate. But then I began teaching social and
cultural geography, and was generally looking around
at new and interesting areas of work, cruising the
journals, and I read a piece by Larry Knopp (1990) in
the Geographical Magazine – a piece which generated
a lot of hostile responses of the typical narrow-minded
“what’s this got to do with geography?” sort. The
responses made me very angry, but I also saw that
sexuality could (and indeed should) be a topic in
geography, so I started to gather together what had
been published so far – Larry’s work, Barbara
Weightman’s, other odds and ends, plus lots of work in
other disciplines that was about geographical topics –
urban sociology, women’s studies, and of course work
from lesbian and gay studies. I put in handfuls of interlibrary loan requests, which was also part of the fun –
maybe a legacy of my time in the archives. And I
wrote an article reviewing that work, and urging
geographers to take sexuality seriously as a topic –
that’s “Insignificant Others”, published in the Institute
of British Geographers’ journal Area in 1991.
That’s when I made contact with a lot of other
people working in the area, such as Gill Valentine, Jon
Binnie and Julia Cream. We then formed the Sexuality
& Space Network, as a way to keep in touch with each
other about research and so on, and we organized a
one-day conference in 1992, called ‘Lesbian and Gay
Geographies?’, held at University College London.
The conference attracted a lot of interest and support,
and some of the speakers would later contribute to
Mapping Desire. There was a lot of exciting work
being done on sexuality at this time (mostly outside
geography) – queer theory was beginning to gain
prominence – and it also chimed with the ‘cultural
turn’ in human geography. Sexuality was definitely on
the agenda, then, at least among a small group of
(mainly) cultural geographers, those interested in
topics like identity and approaches like post
structuralism.
J MS and PJ V: Throughout your academic career
you were a professor at the Cultural Studies
Department. How do you see the relationship
between Cultural Studies and Contemporary
Geography?
DB: As I’ve just mentioned, there is an idea in the
recent history of human geography (at least in the UK)
of a “cultural turn”, that happened some time in the
1980s. This meant, in fact, that lots of human
geographers began to read cultural studies, which was
a big growth area in academia at that time. It was also
at this time that postmodernism was a hot topic, and
the two intersected in interesting (and sometimes
frustrating) ways. When I moved from geography into
cultural studies, in 1995, I was partly taken on because
I had a geographical background, which my new boss
thought was a really good addition to the more
traditional cultural studies, which was quite textual.
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“Fucking” Geography: an interview with David Bell
Cultural studies was moving away from texts, to look
more at cultural practices and cultural identities, so a
geographer working on sexuality was easily remade as
a cultural studies professor!
And it’s also true that some ideas from geography
were seen as a bit “sexy”, thanks mainly to the “new”
cultural geography (which was, in large part, a
geographical adaptation of cultural studies, so there’s
something a bit narcissistic about cultural studies
finding “new” cultural geography interesting). I think
that human geography was revivified and enriched by
its encounter with cultural studies, though lots of
people disagree, and see the “cultural turn” as a
distraction, an annoyance even. But my view, as I have
outlined in an entry for the International Encyclopedia
of Human Geography on precisely this cultural studiesgeography intersection, is that the encounter was
productive, and pushed geography into interesting new
areas. Nowadays, you can still see that impact in the
kinds of work being done in human geography; sadly,
cultural studies has declined as a discipline, at least in
the UK -- a victim of its (inaccurate) reputation as a
kind of uncritical cultural populism (or as applying
high theory to low culture). But I am pleased to have
been becoming a geographer during the “cultural turn”,
because I learnt a lot!
And my ten years teaching cultural studies was a
really wonderful experience, which I can now bring
back into my teaching in geography. I had the privilege
to work alongside some remarkable colleagues in
cultural studies, most notably in my time at
Staffordshire University, where I had the freedom to
develop teaching and research in whatever areas I
wanted – ranging from cybercultures to consumption
to cultural policy.
J MS and PJ V: In 2000, along with J on Binnie, in
your work "The Sexual Citizen” (Bell and Binnie,
2000), the issues of sexual citizenship and sexual
rights acquire a spatiality that many previous
researches, from other social sciences, had
neglected. How do you see the importance of this
work as part of queer research today ? How do
you see the current debate on sexual citizenship
in a global level, where visible forms of identity
protection of rights (as conjugalities and
homoparenting) coexist with a growing postidentity criticism?
To us it seemed obvious that sexual citizenship had
a geography – or a series of geographies, at different
scales. All aspects of citizenship have geographies, in
fact. Maybe that’s just the way geographers think – but
the way we approached sexual citizenship resonated
with a lot of other scholars in that area. That book is
quite highly regarded by people working on sexual
citizenship and related topics, for example in queer
legal studies, and I think a large part of that is due to
the inevitably geographical approach that we took.
Clearly, a big part of the debate about sexual
citizenship has been at the global scale – the notion of
a “global gay citizen”, or of what Lisa Duggan has
called the “new homonormativity”, which is a kind of
globalized western model of “good gay citizenship”.
But we didn’t want to see this so simply; as
geographers, we were aware that global flows don’t
just produce homogeneity. How they “land” and
interact with specific places produces a variegated
landscape. The problem with the globalizing of the
new homonormativity is that it comes with a script
about how to be gay. And this is met with resistance as
well as acceptance.
At the same time, “tolerance” is taken as a sign of
being modern, and this has been used effectively in
some places to argue for rights claims based on the
desire to be seen as modern (or western, or European,
or whatever). These are really interesting and
important issues, and they are profoundly
geographical. Jon has written a lot more on this
question in his book The Globalization of Sexuality
(Binnie, 2004), and is exploring it in a project he’s
currently working on with his colleague Christian
Klesse, looking at transnational LGBT activism in
Europe. Recent debates about gay marriage in
Argentina have also traced a familiar line, in terms of
thinking about what legalization says about the nation
– and, as we’ve seen elsewhere, bringing that into
conflict with the church. Religion is turning out to be a
major faultline in “advances” around sexual
citizenship – something we didn’t explore enough in
The Sexual Citizen. Gill Valentine and some colleagues
at Leeds have recently finished a project on the
Anglican Church in the UK, US and Africa, which has
reinforced this point; we don’t only have to consider
the state as the major influence on how sexual
citizenship takes shape, but also powerful influences
such as religion.
I still think debates about citizenship have been
very important in queer scholarship and activism, even
though they have also been subject to critique and
deconstruction. Appeals to citizenship are nonetheless
very powerful, though with strings attached.
Citizenship is normative, too, and not everyone fits the
profile of what a citizen looks like. And asking to
become a citizen means accepting responsibilities as
well as gaining rights. It’s a bargain, and it’s not
always balanced in your favour. This has been one of
the big debates about what queers should be asking for
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– what’s at stake in asking to be allowed to be a
citizen? In The Trouble with Normal, Michael Warner
(2000) asks these questions in interesting ways, I think.
And we tried to think them through in The Sexual
Citizen, too. In 2006 Jon and I edited a special issue of
Political Geography which revisited the geographies
of sexual citizenship, and that volume included a paper
by Michael Brown that picked up precisely on the
theme of the obligations (rather than rights) that sexual
citizenship brings (Brown, 2006).
But as you say, we now have new debates to think
about, too, as we move “beyond” identity in some
ways, and thus maybe also beyond notions like rights
and citizenship. Identitarian politics, rights-claims, all
these things have been critiqued – though they are still
powerfully appealing, too.
J MS and PJ V: One of the new elements of your
research is the approach of minority sexual
practices, identified as fetishists, as "dogging"
(Bell, 2006) or the sadomasochism (Bell,1995).
What is the potential of the study of these
practices for the construction of knowledge in
Human
Geography?
Is
the
potentially
conservative field of Geography prepared to
discuss this type of research?
DB: A large part of my interest has always been in
sexual cultures – about how different groups develop
ways of doing sex, ways of identifying (or
disidentifying). I think it’s part of my cultural studies
worldview, to see cultural formations as very
interesting things to read with. And I always liked that
urban anthropological/symbolic interactionist work
from the US, places like the Chicago School, work on
tearooms, highway rest stops, cruising grounds. I like
the attention to detail, to looking closely at how
different sexual cultures work, to see them as creative
expressions (for an interesting discussion of the legacy
of this work, see Irvine 2003). I’m interested in the
interplay of place, bodies, desires and imaginings.
At one level, you can get away with working on
these things in geography so long as you show that
there’s some kind of spatial dimension – that it is a
geographical phenomenon. But, as I already said,
there’s also a lot of squeamishness, so it isn’t always
an easy ride. That said, I do think it’s remarkable the
range of topics that are written about now in
geography, from bestiality to strip clubs, from the
erotics of the library to the nudist beach. I think that’s
been a major achievement of the work on geographies
of sexualities, that necessary pluralizing – that interest
in the different ways in which bodies, desires, etc... can
come together. In terms of broader issues of knowledge
production, well, it’s part of an ongoing dialogue about
what constitutes legitimate things to research and
legitimate ways of doing research. And I think some
real achievements have been made there, as part of a
critical reappraisal of how we do geography. There
does seem to be a greater acceptance (though clearly
still with limits) about what can be geography.
And sometimes there are particular reasons for
writing about sexual cultures. For example, my work
on sadomasochism was motivated – theoretically and
politically – as a way of responding to a legal case
here in the UK, in which a group of gay men were
charged with assault (and various other things) for
engaging in consensual same-sex SM practices. This
case became very well known among queer scholars in
the UK, not least because it threw light onto the
constructions of legal citizenship. The case was
debated in the Law Lords, who said some incredibly
strange things that enabled them to ignore the issue of
consent – it didn’t matter that these men had
consented, the actual acts were still seen as assault. I
was also interested in the politicization of SM, which
offered a different way of being political than previous
LGBT movements, precisely because it focussed on
acts rather than identities.
The dogging paper came from a very different
direction. It was partly a way to connect to my work
on technology, which is an area I am still developing –
the sex lives of technologies. More recently I have
written about surveillance technologies (Bell, 2009),
and am currently working on a chapter called “New
sexual affordances”, which looks at this issue, drawing
on work in science and technology studies as well as
sexuality studies. I’m interested in how technologies
become incorporated into sexual repertoires, and
augment or even help to build new sexual cultures –
just as dogging arguably wouldn’t exist without the
car, the cellphone and in internet.
J MS and PJ V: In your work "Queer country: rural
lesbian and gay lives" with Gill Valentine
published in 1995, there is an important
contribution to dismantle the traditional
approach of opposition and hierarchy between
rural and urban areas in geographical science.
What was the impact of this work in other
Geography areas beyond the group of scholars of
sexuality?
DB: Well, I think that rural geography/rural studies
was also affected by the “cultural turn”, and began to
think differently about what the rural is. There has
been a huge amount of interesting rethinking going on,
as the rural has changed and as our ways of thinking
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about it have changed. And including sexuality as a
legitimate topic to think about is part of that
transformation. When Chris Philo wrote about
“neglected rural others” (Philo 1992), he partly paved
the way to turn a focus on sexuality. This has been, I
think, one of the most interesting and welcoming areas
of research.
At a broader level, I guess you can read the
queering of rural geography as a symbol of how
sexuality research has penetrated many of the
subdisciplines. And that’s also part of the mission that
we set ourselves – so we went to political geography
events and rural geography events, not just cultural
geography events. We wanted to bring sexuality into as
many different areas – as I have said before, the one
that I’d still like to conquer is transport geography.
There’s so many interesting potential topics, from car
cruising to air stewards, from “hiking dykes” to brief
encounters at railway stations. One day I will find the
time to write a paper and send it to one of the
mainstram transport journals. We’re also seeing the
human/physical geography divide being breached, with
work such as Cate Mortimer-Sandilands and Bruce
Erikson’s (2010) collection, Queer Ecologies. That’s a
really exciting area at the moment.
J MS and PJ V: The relations between feminist and
queer geographies involve similarities and
differences. What are the limits to be recognized
and the productive relations between these two
fields of knowledge ?
DB: I’d start by saying that some feminist
geographers have been incredibly supportive and have
contributed a lot to the agenda for geographies of
sexualities. And we share a lot of theoretical terrain,
too – feminist theory has been profoundly influential
and important. Gender studies as a “discipline” has
been one of the places where interesting
interdisciplinary work on sexuality is being carried out.
Of course there are differences, and sometimes
tensions. We’re not focussed on exactly the same
concerns. But the phrase you use, “productive
affinities”, sums it up very nicely. A couple of years
ago, we hosted a conference at Leeds exploring the
intersections of queer and feminist geographies, which
offered a chance to reassess those productive affinities.
And journals like Gender, Place and Culture have been
generally very receptive to publishing work on
sexualities.
I have in fact recently been thinking about how the
story of geography’s engagement with sexuality gets
told, for example in surveys or histories of the
discipline. And sometimes sexuality is located as a
subfield of feminist work. I don’t think that’s exactly
right; I think sexuality work emerged at the
intersection of a number of subdisciplines. But it’s
certainly true that feminist work was inspirational, and
helped point us towards useful and innovative theories
and methods. Our work in The Sexual Citizen, for
example, drew on a lot of feminist research. And it was
in part feminists who reminded us (and we who
reminded them) of the importance of studying
heterosexuality, too.
J MS and PJ V: The incorporation of queer theory
in sexualities research
made progress in
geographical analysis possible. What are, in your
opinion, the main theoretical and methodological
contributions of so-called "Queer Geography" for
Geographical Science as a whole?
DB: I doubt there have been many contributions to
geographical science as a whole! Most of geography
remains resolutely unaffected by queer. But in those
areas where there has been an effect, I guess it’s
similar to what has happened in other disciplines. First,
it’s opened up new topic areas, and to some extent
legitimated the study of sexualities, sexual practices,
and so on. But queer has also moved from being a
noun – an object to be studied – to being a verb,
something done to the discipline. Has geography been
queered? Yes and no. The great hulk of mainstream
geographical science remains largely immune, though
some people are trying – think, for example, of Larry
Knopp and Michael Brown’s (2003) work on diffusion
theory or migration. Or some of J.K. Gibson-Graham’s
work in economic/political geography (eg GibsonGraham, 1996). And certainly in the areas most
affected by the “cultural turn”. As Jon wrote in his
“Coming out of geography” (Binnie, 1997) – which is
one of the most important contribtuions to this debate
-- there’s a need to think about queer as an
epistemology, and a methodology. I think more
progress has been made in the latter, largely (as ever
with geography) by importing and “geographizing”
debates being had in other disciplines about “queer
methods”.
Epistemologically, queer theory is often bracketed
in with things like poststructuralism, and so is seen to
have provoked some rethinking of what geography is
and what doing geography means. More broadly, of
course, it’s via “queer geography” that key thinkers
such as Judith Butler have been popularized (if that’s
the right word) in geography. We’ve been part of a
lively conversation, to be sure, one that has had an
impact -- albeit not a universal impact -- across
geography. As I said before, one of the most
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interesting possibilities, just beginning to be explored
really, is to queer physical geography, or maybe to
queer(y) the physical/human divide in geography. I
feel like that’s an area we need to keep pushing at, and
where there’s some great work being done (though not
much of it by geographers). Ideas like “queer nature”
seem to me to be well worth exploring.
J MS and PJ V: The relationship between academia,
social movements and the State are growing
elements of discussion in the scientific realm.
From your experience (Bell, 2007), how do you
see the importance of building an emancipatory
scientific knowledge as an element of
contemporary societies transformation in this
time of crisis? What is the role of Geography?
DB: I’ve been really interested by recent debates
about so-called “public geographies”, which have
reinvigorated the discussion about geography’s
“relevance”, and about our impact beyond the
academy. Clearly there are lots of different dimensions
to this, from quite narrowly instrumental approaches
(which seek to prove “impact” in order to score points
in research evaluations or to win research grants, for
example) to much more broad-ranging thinking about
knowledge and its uses.
One strand of this concerns the activism-academia
divide, seeking to find ways to make our work
politically useful. And while I don’t think we should
expect activists (or whoever) to simply take our ideas
on board, I think we have a responsibility to think
about ways our work might be able to make a
difference. I don’t always feel particularly optimistic
about this, however. I remember being at a conference
which was trying to bridge this activist-academic
divide, and Jeffrey Weeks was speaking about his
conceptualization of identity as a “necessary fiction”.
While this seems pretty self-evident and
uncontroversial to any good poststructuralist, some of
the self-identified activists in the audience were
outraged. How dare he call their identities – around
which they were struggling – fictions! So while we
might tell a story of queer politics and queer theory
working in harmony, there are always difficulties of
translation and the danger of appropriation – look how
Butler had to try to clarify her work on performativity,
and had to try to persuade us that she hadn’t meant to
infer that all dress (or all identity) is drag (Butler,
1993)
Beyond the specific issues of queer geography,
there are bigger issues here. In the UK we have been
debating the “relevance” of geography for some time;
or, as Noel Castree (2002) nicely put it, we’ve been
worrying about “the spectre of irrelevance”. The
public geographies debate is the most recent turn in
that longer story. We shouldn’t see this as a matter of
entitlement – that we should be listened to, or
consulted – but instead work out where and how we
want to intervene. I do think it’s healthy to remember
the world outside the university, and that we do have
diverse “publics” that we could (and should) engage
with. In the UK, though, we’ve lost the role of the
“public intellectual”, and higher education has been
seen as unimportant, or only important for generating
wealth. We need to resist that, but not by retreating
into intellectual obfuscation. I like Michael Warner’s
discussion of this, too, in an essay in Publics and
Counterpublics (2002).
My own experiences, related in the paper you refer
to in the question, was somewhat different, and was
more narrowly instrumental, driven by the imperatives
of my employer. A key issue I wrote about was
translation: how to make our ideas useful and useable
to different audiences. And I still think that’s a key
issue – which is why doing things like interviews is
also useful. So I’d like to end by thanking you both for
giving me this opportunity to explain, in a very
personal way, some of the thoughts of this “impetuous
geographer” about fucking geography (in all senses of
the phrase).
References
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BELL, David. [Screw]ing Geography (censor's
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BELL, David, VALENTINE, Gill. Queer country:
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