WHO AMI A YWAY?

WHO
AMI
A
YWAY?
WHO
AMI
ANYWAY?
THREE INTERVIE\�S vVITH KOKEN ERGUN
CONTENTS
OLJVER KIELMtWER
NOT ONLY BECAUSE rM TURKISH
NIGHT NUR '"'ElL ICH
TURKE
BIN
26/<1.4·
IAN WHITE
ON ACCESS AND EXCLUSION
ZUTRITT UND AUSSCHLUSS
ELMAS DENIZ
WHO A M I ANY,I\TAY?
WER BIN ICH SCHON?
I 01·/ 122
CONTRIBUTORS
COLOPHON
2. Sektionen
• IWI!w • s,ort
-·-
-·llolloot ....... ·TV· ¥ojNI
Da en kcerlig tank k0rte gennem Jyderup
... t.-2�
Dengang Cirkus Tank Love kom til byen
Kunst-vldeo
Kl.mtnlnn l<illleo &or1
lel1dle r men kleriC
tn fi!Melll )jden4J, ac
�l!llfdlonerble'i
et lulltnerisllvenclepookt
fol ham.liut 1M
filtions.filmethansldftet
liiiUnsllilmmed
doUnerUrisll- Og
�·lri�lewr
siJdiC pol hans blag pol
fntemettet.
NOT
ONLY
BECAUSE
I'M
TURKISH
OLIVER KIELMAYER in convcrsa!ion with KOKEN ERGUN
OJ.IVER K!EI.�Ii\YER
:;;
Your works often have a very theatrical and dran1atic clcnlCtH. You \Vcrc trained as an actor, so
looking at your educational background suggests that this is not just a coincidence.
KOKEN ERC;(JN
No, it's not. I was brought up in theatre and even if I never did acting professionally, this is
very importam. \'\1hen I was a teenager, theatre was the only form of an thill I could sec,
because I didn't know anything about contemporary art until quite late. I had nlways been
an "artistic" chanlCtct; that's how we say it in Turkish. I don't like the word, but that's how it
was, and I thouglll acting was my only way. The first time l was conframed with contempo­
rary art was when I worked for the Istanbul Biennial, and I really liked it. I remember being
inspired by a large Nam.June Paik installation, featuring tens of video monitors mounted on
the wall, with David Howie appearing from time to time, and.Joseph Beuys' felt suit hanging
lonesome, very high on a wall. Before I had known just a bit about art history, van Gogh or
Picasso. I was more interested in literature, theatre and cinema, and then Ijoined the actors'
school.
O.K.: It's interesting that you didn't \vam to become a director but an actot:
I<.E.: I think it's mainly because there was no directing school. But after the first year I un­
derstood that I wanted to be behind the scenes. I'm afraid of acting, I have a trauma from it.
They originally accepted me at the school because I put all my heart into my audition perfor­
mance, which made it good. But already in the first year, I had the problem that everything
came Jl·om outside my culture. All the texts and plays came from the Western world. Ancient
Greek theatre was the only one I could identify with, bccallse it was closer to our culture. I
liked the aspect of ritual in it. !loved the chorus and especially the male quality, all perform­
ers were men.
OJ(.: And then the American theatre director Robert 'Nilson came?
K.E.: Yes. I was working for the Istanbul Festivals as a guide and my job was to pick up art­
ists fi·01n the airport. There was a competition among guides to get the big names, so I was a
bit sad when they only gave me Robert \<\1ilson's assistant director. It was always a big thing
for me to work with forcignus, almost like a fetish, because at that time, like many of my
friends I just wanted to escape fi·om Turkey. \Vhcn I first saw Robert Wilson at the rehearsal
for his play, I was fascinated by his power. Everybody else was completely silent, and Bob­
we call him Bob-made everything freeze in time and space. He had groupies everywhere,
but 1 guess [ never wanted to be fan of somebody else, but the one who \vas admired. I had
managed a box office job at the Edinburgh festival the snme ycat; where Robert Wilson was
putting on Orlando with a single actress, Miranda Richardson. I read the book on the plane
and in Edinburgh l was admitted to the general rehearsal by the assistant director I took care
of' in Istanbul. The moment the curtain slowly opened upwards, revealing a structure like a
tree, perfectly placed in the middle of an otherwise empty stage was probably the most excit­
ing point of my life. I was startled because I used to do these sketches lor imaginary theatre
plays that I fantasiscd about directing, �nd what I saw on that stage was so similar to my
sketches. I had an aesthetic orgasm that evening. After the play I went backstage and left an
intimate note to the assistant director asking if there was a chance to work with them. I was
so nervous, I remember the backstage receptionist was smiling to me under her glasses as if
she knew what was going to happen ...
Three months latct; back in Istanbul, the director of the lstrmbul Festivals summoned me to
his office. I was nervous, because I wns known to be the "naughty boy" of the festivals. So I
thought, "Oh my, what have I done this time?" The director pushed a letter in front of me
and asked, as if he was angry, "What is this letter?!" It was li·om Robert Wilson, inviting me
to his Watcrmill Centet; an interdisciplinary htboratory for young artists that he had founded
on Long Island. I couldn't believe it, it was such a big thing, people would kill for that! The
director then smiled nnd congratulated me. With his help I went there, and in the following
ye<lrs, I became Bob's youngest assistant director.
During my time in New York, I started learning about art. After VVatcrmill we would all go to
the city, especially to SoHo, which was then the place for art. 1 remember sccing.Johan Gri­
monprcz' Dial H-1-S- 'T-0-R-Yancl I liked the fact that people could go in and out of the gallery,
whereas in a theatre this would be impossible. Slowly I began to sec alternatives to that illusion
that we create in conventional theatre. I could never understand why we were trying so hard
to make everything lake. That's why I was fond of ancient Greek or Chinese theatre: there is
no illusion as such, people would come to the play already knowing the story. Bob would do
the smne. He was after another type of illusion, something more spiritual, emotional. He often
mentioned the energy in big rock concerts. He was in fact talking about rituals, in which the
plot is less important than participation. Like in my video Ashum that I'm currently working
on, the amateur actors arc playing a pan but they arc not trying to fool themselves as we did
at acting school.
O.K.: I'm not sure if the performers in Aslumt wouldn't want to have the very same quality
of acting as was taught at your school. I think they try very hard
LO
achieve a certain level o f
acting, of depicting a character. For m e this i s controversial, been use o n the one hand Aslmm
is
n
very friendly work showing the performers less as actors but as human beings,
for example
when they arc rehearsing their parts. This gives a certain beauty to the work. But there is
another layer: I really like the silly costumes, the bad <JCting. !:Or me this is a quality based on
irony. But irony is such a fragile concept that often cnnnot be shared even within every culture
but only within a very specialised discourse. I doubt if the performers in Aslmra could share my
pleasure about their bad acting. They could not understand it as part of an aesthetic experi­
ence based on irony bm would possibly feel sneered at.
K.E.: They arc worried about the acting quality and the costumes, but not in the same way
you would be. They take everything they do very seriously. But what we find funny, they
wouldn't. It's the same with the beauty contest held by the Filipino community in the video
Binibining Promised Land from 20 I 0, when they arc projecting Fashion TV in the background,
or when they have a clccomtion with umbrellas which reminds them of the Philippines. I
think it should be normal that we laugh about something that makes other people sad. This
is cruci:1l in Aslutra, because what we find funny is actually a ritual of weeping. I appreciate
both approaches. I find tl1e costumes or the acting skills funny in a way, but also I find the
annual performance that remembers the pain of their prophet Imam Hussein very humble
and intimate.
O.K.: Maybe we shouldn't talk so much about what's funny, but about what has an aesthetic
quality. It doesn't change the structure of the question. You take certain clements out of a
�
certain cultural context, and then you rearrange and present them in the system of contcmpor;1ry art. You sho'v their lack of aesthetic quality or the aspect of b;:td (astc very obviously.
Thus you mock their bad taste to a certain degree, but at the same time you esteem this bad
taste highly enough to validate it within
a
piece of art. It also touches the big issues of cultural
exploitation and colonialism in the 21st century.
K.E.: I have thought about it many times, but I don't consider myself as such a "detached ob­
server". I seriously integrate with the people in my films. I don't end the project when the film
has finished but keep in touch with the community. You cannot get away li·orn the fact that by
showing the video in a museum you will be named as the author of the film, but I'm not just
shooting and running away. In I, Solditr and T!tc f7ag I exploited the situation, I was a voycw:
Shoot, run away, and present to others ... But they were early works-/, Soldier is from 2005,
T!te Flag from 2006-and I desperately wanted to show my own problems with the Turkish
Republic and Turkish nationalism. I wanted to let all my hatred out, and I wanted people to
sec the torment I had to go through.
O.K.: This is precisely why these works arc so compelling.
K.E.: Also, because they were made before I had seen a lot of art, and when I was not so
much contaminated by "performance stress". I, Soldier and Thr. Flag arc like the same work,
just in two parts.
O.K.: What were the events that you rllmccl?
K.E.: /,Soldier is the Youth and Sports Day and commemorates 19th May 1919, the day when
Atallirk, travelling from Istanbul, reached An;�tolian soil. He came there ;�nd denounced the
Ottoman Empire who surrendered to British, French and the Italian forces at the end of the
First 'vVorld War. The Turkish Republic considers this day to be the beginning of the War of
Independence. The following year, in Ankara on April 23rd, they proclaimed the new Turkish
Republic and opened its parliament. The myth goes that when Atat(irk left parli<�ment he saw
all these kids looking so happy th<�t he wanted to call this the Kids' Day. The Fla.g documents a
typical Kids' Day celebration in Istanbul. Hosted by the mayor and the go\'crnor of Istanbul,
with the participation of a high ranking general, the ceremony feawrcs poems and oaths read
aloud by primary school pupils. It's a pompous, patriotic performance devised by elders to be
performed by children.
O.K.: I think /, Sa/diu is a very gay work. On one of the two channels you arc more or less
only showing a very cute soldier.
!<..E.: I sometimes flirt with my camera. I mean, I direct my gaze to things that I like. I always
thought that the emc soldier was me in a way, fragile to authority. I do have an attilchmcnt to
power and I'm intrigued by discipline, but 1 don't like the male authority in Turkish society,
the maehoism, like the other man in /, Soldier who is virtually screaming a stern poem ;�bout
the virtues of being a soldier. So the work is ambigious, cliiTercnt people read it di!Tcrcntl}�
When my father saw I, Soldier he said it wns very good. And when my aunt saw the little girl
in The Flag she said, "This nationalism is good nmionalism! Look
Whereas my brother would giggle, "God, look at this little f:1scist!"
<It
this little diamond!"
O.K.: Jn The Fln,g they play rap music. Was that played at the event or did you add it later?
K.E.: They played it there. In recent years, popular songs have replaced the usual military
marches, which used
10 accompany
the choreography. I don't add anything ex tra
10
my works
during editi ng, I might rarely ndd sound e ffects to improve the IIow of the energy in the work.
O.J<.: So it corresponds with the image?
K.E.: Yes.
O.K.: Why were you allowed
10
film the people in /, So/diu and The Flag ll·mn such
a
close
distance?
K.E.: It's a public event. And I build trust between my camera and the performers, that's the
most importalll thing. Luckily I could keep certain qualities fi·om my Eastem roots. My pei·­
sonal spm;c is not that important, and when I enter somebody else's personal space I give them
the courtesy that we share this space. In \.Ycstcrn culture, personal space is \'CI'}' important and
people; clon't like intruders.
0.1<.: T he aesthetics of the celebrations remind me of Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia.
Why is the Turkish nation so patriotic? Or do these events not really represen t Turkish society?
K.E.: Not really. This is an extreme. It's an
act
of the Turkish Re publ ic that wants to protect
itself from its nwn people and be loved by its children. Recent elections have shown that this
isn't wo rking, bcc;�usc you cannot deny all the dife
f rent cultures that existed in the Ottoman
Empire and pretend that within a few years into the new Republic they all just disappe;�I·cd.
But although mass population displacements and forced exiles took place during the transi­
tion from empire to nation state, Turkey didn't experience genocides or ethnic cleansing on a
similar scale to Europe. Or rather, what happened in Turkey has not yet been rc\'Calcd to be
like those in Europe after the Second World \Var. So unlike Germany for example, the Turk­
ish people can still be proud of their national identity, and they usc the state holidays as a
platform LO promote it. And the aesthetics m-e all borrowed from Na1.i Germany, Fascist Italy
and Stalinist Russiot.
O.K.: It's interesting that they can still usc a certain visual language because it hasn't been
linked
10
genocide. There was the Armenian genocide, but it wasn't linked to a visual lan­
guage that would make it impossible to have these kinds of celebrations.
K.E.: The Turkish nationalist idea was never dclcatcd, they still hope that they will be an
important nation. The Republic is based on all kind of brainwashing that happens through
mandatory school education.
O.K.: l consider kids going to school to be progress.
K.E.: Yes, bmjust look at what they le::1rn. It's much more than te:lching kids to read, they
teach them to become nationalists. And then they send boys ofT
10
do military service.
O.K.: Did you go imo the army?
;;
K.E.: Not yet. I will do the short term service. If you live abroad and pay taxes for :� years,
you can do one month instead of ten, provided that you pay €5,000 to the state. If you live
in Turkey, you can only avoid it on medical grounds or if you're openly gay. But for this you
must go through a lot of tests. At the moment there arc psychological tests. In the 1990s they
wanted video or photographic evidence of you having sexual intercourse with
a
man. Imagine
the video collection they've got!
O.K.: T here is another very straightforward reference to the army in 1/INKLOVE. How did
you come to film a tank in Denmark?
ICE.: The idea came when I started going abroad from Turkey. I noticed that a lot of people
in the United States and Europe would kind of look down on me
a
bit. They would always
ask me questions suggesting that I didn't come from a very good democracy or a very civilized
country. They were talking about democracy and freedom of speech and they would criticise
societies that worked differently from theirs. It always disturbed me, especially when I started
to sec n lot of problems in their societies.
OJ(.: But Turkey is a democracy, isn't it?
K.E.: 11asically, yes. nut it happened three times between l 960 and 1980 that the army took
control of the country. Whenever the public voted for something thnt the militnry or elite Re­
publicans didn't want, the military would take over, not immediately but after a few years, and
annul the public vote. T hey would roll tanks into the streets on the first morning and then take
over the radio station, announcing their authority. Two generations of the Turkish Republic
grew up with the tense cxpectatiou of a military coup every ten years. \'\'hile we thought it
was changing during the 1990s when the coalition government was led by a party with a more
religious background, in the winter of 1997 the military staged a rather postmodern nction
in a small town, which led to snap elections. Since then, this incident has been n:lcrred to as
the "posunodcrn coup". Sincan,
a
smnll town ncar the capitnl, governed by the same religious
party, was drawing negative attention to itself, by encouraging religious mass spectacles and
a night of performances that called for the liberation of Jerusalem from the Israeli occupa­
tion on occasion of .Jerusalem Day. It included heaclscarvcd young girls, reciting the Koran or
universal resistance poems with microphones on stage. Surely an image that would make both
the Republicans' and the army's hair stnnd on encl. So Sincan was often in the newspapers,
shown as a radical town. One morning people in the town woke up to the sound of tanks,
just like in the old military coups. But this time it was n pcrlormancc put on by the army as a
warning message. A line of army tanks left the barracks and rolled onto the main road, and
then \\·ent back to the barracks again. Next day, Sinean was ngain in the news, and in a few
days following an emergency state meeting, the government was forced to resign. ! myself re­
ally liked the idea of facilitating a military coup just by driving some tanks onto the street, and
I thought I could repeat this in the least expected society, a welfare society, like Denmark. In
the beginning, I thought about other things to do with the tanks. For cxampk I wanted one of
them to penetrate one of the houses with its gun, like sexual intercourse, but that didn't work
out. I often
swrt
with an idea, but then it dc,·clops ;md moves away from it.
O.K.: Do you mean the project takes on a life of its own?
K.E.: Exactly. At first, 1 planned using actors and I had a script. It was very difTcrent from
what you sec now. As we started manoeuvring the tank in a side street closed to traffic, people
from the small town started coming out of their houses and came towards the tank.
O.K.: So you didn't commission people to turn up?
K.E.: No, only a very few people in the town knew a tank would be coming. Since most of the
Danish army's tanks were in Afghanistan we rented the tank from a private collectOJ; but the
Danish voluntary army also helped us ensure traflic would still flow while we performed with
the
tank. The shooting was in two parts, the first from 7 to
12 o'clock in that small street with
fictional characters. But while shooting I already noticed that I didn't like it, but I couldn't
say what was going wrong. The second part would be the tank on the main road, between the
train station ;mel the town hall. That was the moment when it became a public performance.
It was amazing, it was really like a circus! Everybody was coming fearlessly tow;�rds the tank,
everybody w;�s watching it and taking pictures. That's when I said, "This is it!"
O.K.: For me it's a very open work, there's basically just the tank coming, then the scene in
front of the tmffic lights where it's making a noise, and then it just ends somehow. There is no
dramaturgy. To me it looks very much like a sketch.
K.E.: Exactly. That's why l'm very uneasy about commissions. I was given a budget, I was
given a lot of recognition from the organisers so I wanted to make something big. But I don't
regret it. TiJNKLOVE is a project where I realised what I should not do, and that's fiction. It
took €1 0,000 to re;�lise the project, but I achieved bringing a tank there and I made people
enjoy it. I did something for the people and this will stay \Vith me and with them. But m<�ybe
it cannot be transformed into an artwork. The video TA.NKLOVE was not my strongest and
1 think the whole experience is better summarised in the picture when we
arc
all posing in
front of the tank. I saw what real friendship in a small community mc;�ns. I became fi·iends
with them. It marks the beginning of my practice with different social groups. Before that,
I wasn't emotion<�ll)' attached to people I was shooting. With TA.NKLOVE it changed. That
makes it a very important work. It's not about your plan but about what it develops into, and
what you give to society is more important th<�n wh<1t you give to the art world.
O.K.: The martial references in I, Soltlier, The Flog ;md TA.NKLOVE ;�rc very obvious, but even
in WEDDING, which is like a video collage of numerous Turkish weddings in Berlin, there
arc some rather violent scenes. At the same time you always show a very vulnerable side of
a ccrt<�in behaviour, so you seem to be very much interested in the ambiguity of power <�nd
strength.
K.E.: WEDDING is ;�lso violent. I mean, in a way it's disturbing. I appreciate gifts given within
a society, hut in another I don't rc;�lly like how they did it at that p<�rticular wedding. Keeping
these notes, how much did these give and how much those? Actually, at first I hated it! That's
why I interrupted the music at some point, to listen to them. But at the same time it's serving
the community by recycling wealth within the community, and
their new life.
it helps the fiunily to build
up
�
O.I<.: At least for me, WEDDING is a very voyeuristic work, because for the audience it's a
bit like going to the zoo nnd \vatching 1'urkish people gelling tn�u'l'icd. I think a lot of your
works have this clement of voyeurism and I'm not sure if it's what you intend, because you
w�nt to interact with the people in the video and integrate, even if only temporarily, into their
community. Wouldn't you prcrcr it if the audience got into a less voyeuristic role and shared
more of your own experience?
K.E.: T think that is impossible, because they cannot share my experience. The minute you
talk about an audience who hasn't been there, it's already a layer of distance from the whole
original experience. Even my own film is not a pet-e
f et representation of what I have expe­
rienced. So what can we expect the audience to get? It's a problem with all documentation,
with all representation. t\nd it's something I think about nnd will continue to work on. t\t one
point in the future I could say, "No experience can be experienced without the experience
itsell:" And then, "Forget it! I'm not gonna represent it." After 1/lNKLOVE, the research I did
with the B'Tselcm archives was my second turning point. B'Tsdcm is an initiative founded by an
Israeli group in order to provide information about violation of human rights in Palestinian
arcns under Israeli occupation. For their project Shooli11g Ba(k, they gave free video cameras
to the Pnlcstinians. Any time
a
direct violation or harassment happens they can take it out
and document the incident . I searched through the video footage in the archive of B'Tsclrm
because that footage is probably the closest we can get to their exper-ience. They experience
the situation first hand and 1 valued that more than anything I could have done myself in
the region, even if I'd lived in the occupied territories for n long time. So hlecidcd simply to
present a selection of the it· videos as a lecture. I prefer to show mostly abstract images though,
not directly related to human right violations, or confrontation with settlers for example. They
range fl·01n images of sunset, fireworks, snow on rooftops in Hebron, to steady documentation
of Fashion TV on a TV monitor that could be as long as the duration of a tape, etc. This
was a revealing moment for me and made my editing techniques change, they became more
loose and rough.
O.K.: So what about yourself? Interaction between you and
n
community is a vital ;mel es­
sential part of your production process, so I guess it's not only important what happens with
the community or the artwork, but also what happens with yourself.
K.E.: Yes, in WEDDING, I was dancing with them, and not only because I'm Turkish but
because I have a different approach in general. When I was shooting WEDDING, n crew from
a
German TV channd came to make a documentary. They were four people with a lot of
equipment, they had big, strong lights. Their presence was so dominant and they didn't fit in
there. Not because they were German, but because they didn't want to communicate with the
people. On my side, e,·en if it's important how I
ed it
these communities and events is what is most relevant.
the material in the end, the reality of
O.K.: The very last scene in I'Vi.?DDI.NG shows a German who is obviously a very bad dancer;
this comes at a very prominent place in the video, so it's a kind of' statement.
K.E.: There is a funny clement in it, but it's also a statement that you only become a member
of this community when you dance. lt's not a problem if you arc
a
good dancer or not. It's
about trying, doing. Rituals do not say, they do. If they ask you to join and you say, "No", they
may not mind, but they will always consider you "out". But he is doing his best, he becomes a
pan of it and he is smiling. The very last picture shows him smiling.
O.I<..: Why did you work with three projectors? I noticed that very often two pictures show the
crowd, and one follows one individual.
K.E.: At a certain point ] just couldn't find a better way to show that fast footage. I was lost in
it, it was hundreds of hours of film. I was also planning to edit a single screen version, but I
gave up. Putting the crowd left and right and the individual in the middle is just a technique I
used then. If I were to edit it again now, I might do it diO'crently.
O.K.: \"ihy did you give up on the single screen version?
I<..E.: When I saw it installed for the first time with three screens, it was just what I really
wanted. J wanted to carry a bit of the experience of the wedding into the exhibition hall.
With three screens you have more of this eflcct, because you can walk along them. And I had
seen so many weddings, that one screen just wouldn't have worked. But in 7il.NKL.OJIE and
Binibining I was comfortable with a single screen.
O.K.: One great thing about multiple projections is that you can have very disparate things
simultaneously. It's like a text in a book with footnotes, which also offers clillcrcnt layers of
information . i\'laybc it's very suitable for your kind of work, that you don't just have one real­
ity, but different aspects of the same event or situation at the very same time.
K.E.: At the same time in the video, but not necessarily in reality. The work is composed of
maybe 50 diOcrent weddings and in each wedding there was something going on in every di­
rection. It's like a cubist strategy, to sec with many eyes and to sec something at the s;�me time
from dillerent angles with different perspectives. I had no idea what final form it would take
when I started ftlrning in 2006. I spent one and a half years editing WEDDING. I would sit in
fmnt of the computer and put things together, I arranged things like a jigsaw. David Bowie
used to write songs like this. He would cue out words and put them on the table and would
just re-combine them like playing Scrabble. That's exactly how 1 st;�rt with editing, nnd then
I just try out different things until I think,"Okny, this looks nice." Very orten there is no other
reason apan from that it looks good.
O.K.: Looking good is a perfectly accurate and importam reason when it comes to nrt, when it
comes to making decisions about formal matters. In the magazine Dcr Sjiitgd you \\'ere quoted
as saying that WEDDING is about "rituals of disintegration". It sounds very compelling, but
what docs it actually mean?
K.E.: It refers to my ongoing PhD thesis. The working title is Rituals of Dsintrgration-Cultuml
i
Bonding iu llltddiug Rituals of 1itrkish Immigrants in Berlin . The idea of disintegration primarily
refers to the integration discussions in Germany, and secondly to the temporary voluntary
isolation happening during wedding ceremonies here. In WEDDING they isolate themselves
voluntarily and get relief fi·01n the outside world.
O.I<..: lt 's a bit like the gay scene.
�
ICE.: Yes, there's no difference between gays having their parties as closed crowds and an
in1tnigrant cotnmunity getting together, closin g the doors to the outside world and living their
own moments for three or four hours. I lind that very positive. Rituals can include and exclude
at the same time, that's
a
general pattern.
O.K.: What I find a bit tricky is that you can also read "rituals of disintegration" in a way that
the rituals arc about disintegration. But actually they're not, they're about integ r<�tion within
a small community through disintegration from a bigger society.
K.E.: I usc it more as a sarcastic word play about the conventional policies of the German
state, trying to "intcgr<�te" other cultures into their society. In this sense, "rituals of disintegra­
tion" is basically a word play, it sounds good, but I still have to think about it.
O.K.: Would you agree that in the long run it is a good strategy for the sake of imegration that
you allow places where people can be together within their communities and peer groups? I
think it's less about disintegration and more about the segmcmation and pluralisation of eve­
ryday cultural life. We mentioned the gay community, but there arc so many others. \·Vc arc
postmodem people who play different roles at different hours of the day and in different situ­
ations. W<: work as the stc'J'cotypical employee in the ollice from nine to live, then we go home
and become a professional chel; after that we go out and become the sexy night clubbcr. Like
our lilc is full of differem roles, I'm sure that for most of the guests at the Turkish wedding, it's
also like an "Erlcbnis\\'clt" and I actually think that's a positive thing.
K.E.: I totally agree. These moments of peer group bonding arc very important for the
well-being of other groups as well. l sometimes ask myself why I'm attracted to these com­
munities? Because they arc very differen t from my culture, or because I have major questions
<tbout my own social environment? I do have a serious issue with the dichotomy of being
from Istanbul. Istanbul is such a dichotomous place, the Turkish Republic replacing the Ot­
toman Empire. Before it was the cultural and political centre of the .Eastern Mediterranean
and Balkan traditions, and suddenly it bcc<tme an outpost of Western culture, governed by
secular republicans in denial of their own roots, trying to be progressive but actually becom­
ing more conservative. Conservative about things they didn't have originally as a tradition
but that were imported fi·om the West at the beginning of the 20th century. And they look
down on pl:oplc who don't think or live like them. I grew up in
a
very secular society that
copied Europe in every detail. A lor of things weren't given to me. I'm interested in these
rituals because they had been taken nway from me and I want to rediscover them. !'v!aybc it's
an identity problem. I mean why am I going through identities of other people?
Sometimes I do get away from that notion of something becoming an artwork. Thm feeling
usually strikes me the moment when I'm within a group. I feel I can't represent those cmo·
tions that I ' m experiencing in them, for instance during the weddings. lvfaybc I'm using these
projects as a tool for m y self-education. In other words, I'm really living with my
projects.
f would be interested to start with another project but without any intention of making an
artwork. That's why I'm quite comfortable in the academic circle now, focusing on written
work.
O.K.: Well, you still have a communicable result, be it an anwork or a thesis. I don't think
you arc a person who wants to travel the world but not share his experience. I mean you don't
just go somewhere to live and experience a certain community and then come back home,
you also show it to people.
K.E.: I know, I wnnt
take pictures?
w
show it to people. But maybe it goes back to questions like why do we
O.K.: Very often, we take pictures of everything in a certain situation because we want to
conserve something, keep it for the future, remember it. But at the same time we forget the
experience, because we arc so busy taking pictures! ll's like people who arc always busy find­
ing an ilCCuratc app on their iPhone, they forget to live in the real word.
ICE.: There is one other reason, which is very important for our discussion, to show others
what you have seen!
O.K.: Oh yes, and this is also controversial. Some friends of mine kept sending me c-mails
with their holiday pictures. At one point I asked them not to spam me with these pictures
anymore. There is nothing less interesting for me than seeing other people's holiday pictures.
K.E.: Oby, this is the crucial point, document something and you can't sec the reality! \Vhcn
someone shows you the picture and says, "This was when we had the best prosecco 011 the
beach in Tahiti!" we <1re lost, bcc<1use]Oil didn't hm•c the prosccco on the beach in T<�hiti,;·ou
were not there with your lover. You sec what your friend saw, but it's never the same emotion.
Like so m11ny other filmm11kcrs, I go somewhere to document something 1 find very interest­
ing. Hut it might not be interesting for other people, so I try to lind " way to support the emo­
tion by other things. Binibining for ex11mplc could neve•· be only one film. It needs dincrcnt
layers, thm's why now there is
11
poster and covers of Filipino magazines on the wall and three
intcn•icws with .Jnmcs, lvfary Lou and Doda Lina.
O.K.: And I think you mustn't underestimate all the editing. It's about processing visual infor­
mation in n w<�y that it becomes interesting for 11n audience.
K.E.: Of course, but that is what I do all the time. But if I have an opportunity to show and
tell people more, why shouldn't I take this opportunity? Eight months after the bc<1uty pag­
eant, it suddenly occured to me that it would be interesting to m<1kc intim;�tc interviews with
them. I'm happy I've clone this. I cannot imagine Binibinin,t: just as the film anymore. I like to
have the other components as well, because my experience
\vellt
into that direction. 1 made
this film also lor them. This film is not only for me and the art audience.
O.K.: I can imagine that not all people from the communities you work with arc happy with
your films. Especially because the works use criteria that don't come from the communities but
from a Western aesthetic discourse. I think there is necessarily a clash of at least two diiTcr­
cnt systems of values. But I like the idea of producing an artwork based on likes and dislikes
from a totnlly diiTerent context than contemporary art discourse, maybe it's even an excellent
artistic strategy to find new visual languages in the end.
K.E.: It's not the case, that the Filipino community didn't like the film. Still, months after I
gave each pnrticipnnt the DVD of the film, only a few or the girls told me they had watched
�
it. The rest didn't because they don't care about the film that much. We know each other and
we have a llltttual trust bct\vccn us that goes beyond this fllrn producL.
ll 's
Jllorc in1ponnnl
for them, as it is for me, to share images of the film on Facebook as insralled in an exhibition
in Poland. It will be the same when it's installed in Winterthur. Carrying their experiences
abroad is more valuable, whatever forrnnt or shape it's made in. It extends their joy as well ns
existence, and l am like a messenger in all this.
l'll tcll you what some girls complained about. Evelyn, candidate number 14, was angry with
me because her picllln.: didn't appcnr in the photo book I published. So T made her pnrt in the
film longer than others, and put a special clip on YouTube lor her·. Or·james, the orgnniscr;
was only bothered that he looked fat in the interview, but not about how it was edited or what
he said. You sec, rituals arc interesting for me also because they arc pre-aesthetic. They have
their own beauty, but not made <recording to aesthetic values and standards that we employ
in our <rrtworks.
O.K.: But you seem to be very, very interested in situations or rituals where aesthetics arc
important. At a wedding, you must look good and you dress up, a beauty comcst is genuinely
about beauty and also in the Ashura ritual they invest a lot into the look of their costumes. It's
situations where people want to do something as beautifully as they can.
I<.E.: And we, the <rudicncc, think they arc failing! This is related to my experience in theatre,
when I litilcd on stage. V
i faybe this is also a reason why I feel close to situations like this. llut it's
just lililing !i·om our point or view. The emotions in the Ashura ritual arc much more important
than any representation of them. The emotions of the people arc shared and re<rl, the actors re­
ally cry and the audience really cries. The actors aren't separated li·mn the audience, and achicv·
.
ing this is no f1ilure at all. They pass on an emotion through the generations, the emotion or the
weeping of Hussein's pain. Also in WEDDiNG they keep society alive by repeating always the
same ritu<rls. Donding together while dancing, bonding together financially and so
<t
on.
I don't sec
society exploited or spoilt by money, I don't sec that they arc throwing the money around. I sec
it as something very honest and thus beautiful. They actu<:�lly throw dollars, although they live in
Germany, because "money" means dollars! 'Vc may laugh about these cultural codes, but what I
want to show in my works is that they have a dillcrcnt meaning in other societies.
0.1<.: In the very early work Untilltd rrom 2004· you dress up like a woman. It's actually the
only work in which you perform yourself. You put. different veils and make-up on and you
weep. \Vhy?
K.E.: Because I was against the secular establishment or the Turkish Republic that dcuicd
certain rights to the people, like wearing the hcadscarf. ivly interest was about the stress of
these women, whether they have to wear it or arc denied wearing it. I personally sec it as
a traditional garment, not a politic:�! symbol. Dut the secular state tried everything to stop
them from wearing it. l'm interested in the women's problems and not the state's. tdy opinion
is, "Get on with it, think of other things, let's move forward!" I would like to sec Turkey as
a country wher·c Muslim women could do any kind of work keeping their hcadscarvcs on,
whereas in the other European countries it seems to be goin g in the opposite direction.
O.K.: I wouldn't overcstim<ttc it. Wearing headscarves may be rorbiddcn in five years but
then be allowed in another twenty. When l'vluslims become reliable partners within a global
community, nobody will care about a hcadscarf. People in Europe arc ali·aid of headscarvcs
because they associate them with fundamentalism and suicide bombers. It's irrational but
human. I think this misunderstanding will disappear, at least when the economic situation in
l'vluslim coumrics improves, radicalism and fundamentalism will lose auraction. \Vhen you
have enough money, the interest to blow yourself up is much smaller.
K.E.: 'lviuslims? How can you generalise about it?
O.K.: Europeans don't blow dtemsclvcs up ,·cry often. I saw a documentary about terrorists in
Afghanistan, who tried to blow up <tn American convoy. They didn't care what was inside the
cars or trucks, they just wanted to blow up something American. Several times they had no
success, in the end I think they managed to blow up
a
jeep. following these people it became
quite clear that it had nothing to do with idealism, they just wouldn't know what to do all day
long, they had no purpose, no money and no perspeCtive.
ICE.: You need to realise that it has something to do with anger. People of an occupied coun­
try can do whatever they want against an im·asion. You live in Switzerland. ]f the Americans
invaded your country, what would you do?
O.K.: But we have been invaded already. By dubious moral standards and silly products, capi­
talism and companies fc>r cxnmplc.
K . E . : But do they shoot you? Do they kill your mother and father with satcllitc-guidccl drones?
O . K . : They don't need weapons to kill. They made my father depressed and my mother liu.
So don't misunderstand me, I'm totally against invading other countries.
K.E.: But you're saying that these people have no intellect and no money and if they bad
money they wouldn't commit suicide bombings! That's very, very sad.
0.1:\..: \•Veil, "intellect" is the wrong word, maybe "knowledge" is better.
K.E.: Not everybody should be world travellers like you and me, it's not healthy. We must be
tolcrnnt about different groups living with their own cultural codes and governing thcmseh·cs
with their own laws, in different parts of the world. In Beirut I met this wonderful woman
who changed my life. i\Iy local assistant was taking me around the city and one day he took
me tO his Armenian mother. She comes fi·om Turkey and wanted to cook for me. From the
first moment I met i\'ladamc Dclifcr, there
wns a
certain allraction bct\\·cen us. She was
speaking the most beautiful Turkish I had ever heard. Her family was kicked out of Adana
on the south-cast coast of Turkey, a m;�jor Armenian city, during the first years of the Turk­
ish Republic. Madame Dclifcr is a philosophy teacher, but there were no books in the rooms.
\Vhcn I asked her where the books were, she said, "You arc sitting on them." Jndccd, we were
sittin� on settees, but they were like boxes covered with fabric, and under the fabric were all
the books! In our world we want to show our books, we want to show how much we read . I
visited her fi·cqucmly and it became like a salon. We were talking about religion, belief and
the Turkish-Armenian culture. She was not so proud of her own intellectual knowledge but
had a certain kind of disinterestedness about many things that I l-ind interesting. She was
�
so absorbed and very happy with her own experiences. She had her own world, which was
enough for the whole world. At the same time she was very tolerant. She knew that I'd been
in Israel, but she didn't just ask the usual questions like, "What's it like there?" She didn't
have this extraordinary urge to know everything because for her it was more important to
know herself. Bur we always want to know more about others, especially in the
ilrt
world.
O.K.: I actually want to know more about the world.
K.E.: But the question is why do we have this urge to know things ;�bout other cultures and
countries? Docs it bring with it a certain level of authority, a cultural hierarchy? Do we feel
superior when we sec other people who do not h;�ve what we hm·c? One of my professors in
Istanbul told me that China was one of the very last countries ro open embassies around the
world, the reason w;ts simply because they were not. interested in other countries.
O.K.: Well, nowadays we have to live and cooperate with other nations and cultures on a
global scale. Also China has to deal with the rest of the world and they became interested,
to a certain degree. For me the interesting question is how you can verify and validate any
inform01tion about the world. Even if I travel a lot, my experience will always be limited. So
c1·cn if I travel the world and try to sec it all by myself, it would still only be a tiny liulc bit of
everything. OITicial news olicrs me another tiny liulc bit in form of more abstract and formal­
ised information. And even if this information is customised and sometimes instrumentalised,
it is still relevant to a certain degree. And then you have documentaries, which also bring an
insight into othc•· communities.
I(.E.: But how much can we learn about others, if we don't really go there? You mentioned
the Afghani guy who tried to bomb an American convoy. I still sympathise with that. He is
resisting occupation. If I were in his situation I would have clone the same. But you were
given this information li·OJn a documentary, you don't really know what was going on. And
the question is why they wnnt to bring this insight to you. There arc different ways of being
interested in people. In the world of documentaries l sec examples of how careers arc built
on the representation of other cultures. They get sold to certain institutions and TV chan­
nels. And often they provide the autho•· as well as the audience with a sense of relief that
comes from a feeling of superiority. ARTE is the perfect exnmplc of one culture patronising
another one.
O.K.: I think your approach to situations and people is a very emotional one. The pcrlcct
symbol for a more intellectual
one
is the camera team with the big lights that came to the
Turkish wedding. But I agree that if you become part of the situation emotionally, you don't
even have to a�k certain questions anymore. It also makes me think or the gay question
again. I think Ahmadincjacl is right in a way when he says that there arc no gay people in
lrnn. The word gay is wrong and the whole concept of being gay doesn't belong to their
culturl', because it's a purely \Vestcrn concept.
K.E.: Thank you, because I always try to explain this! For example in Israel, I met a very sweet
Israeli gay couple in Haifa, complaining that they couldn't get married and talking about gay
rights. But their t\rab gay friends didn't really agree with them and said, "We arc happy like
this. Come on, why do you need laws, it's not necessary. \Ve still conccnl it from our parents,
so why the need to marry and shout it out to the world?" But the couple said, "No, we have
to tell our parents, we have to stand up nnd say that we nrc queer!" I also didn't agree with
them, I don't think you hnvc to necessarily show it and go public. The gay community, or the
gay scene as we know it, is a Western thing and indeed it's right to say that they don't have the
same in Iran. Which of course doesn't mean there is no homosexuality. There arc di!Tcrcm
ways of experiencing it but a great denl of people in the Western world just don't get that.
O.K.: Thnt's again the analogy of the camera team with the floodlights. Organising n Chris­
topher Street Day in Iran would be noodlights on. It mnkes something visible, but at the same
time it's destroying something, something that is beautiful.
K.E.: for example, in .Jerusalem there is an annual gay parade now. ln Tel Aviv it would be
fine, because it's a more secular city, but in .Jerusalem people arc very religious and I think we
should accept that. They live ihere because the Temple Mount is there, they live there because
Christianity was born there and they live there because it's an important V
l l uslim city. It's a
religious city. About marriage, I found out in Qatar that a closeted gay li-irnd of mine had
to get married to a woman in order to continue practicing his homosexual lilc. Because if he
didn't get married after a certain age, the social pressure on him would be simply overwhelm­
ing. Now, this can be seen as highly problematic or e\"en sick if you look from a Western point
of view, bm it is n common situation in some parts of the world. Some things cnn very well be
left unspoken. Articulation is not a universal rule. In fact, after 011l, I don't believe in universal­
ity. I believe in di!Tcrcnccs nnd getting on with di!Tcrenccs.
0.1<..: I think at the moment a lot of questions, also linked to sexuality arc becoming somehow
official in Muslim coumries. Before you wouldn't talk about it, you would just do it, but in the
era of the Internet and global communication it seems ine\'itable to discuss it. I think within
the next I 0 or 20 >'Cars they will have to make certain decisions about it. They have to be more
precise about some situations. If they arc allowed or not, if they nrc legal or illcgnl.
I<.. E.: But how importnnt is law? There arc societies that govern themselves with written law
made by one person, and some others with murunl understandings, not written down.
O.I<..: I think the latter will be over.
K.E.: I think in the Western world it is long over, but not in other countries, and I think we
have to accept and tolerate it.
O.K.: Well, it would be fantastic if they could keep it the way it is, but I think sooner or later
they nutst be explicit nbout certain rules.
K.E.: There is the law of the lawmakers and there is the law of the community. In Turkey
though, with all its problems, we still have an internal law within society, the town, the com­
munity. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Before jumping on to a judgement, we first have to
observe how il's functioning in specific cases. I have read a news article about a transsexual
who lives in a sm;�ll Turkish village in the countryside. He is perfectly happy there and e,·ery·
body loves him and accepts him as he is. I'm not inlcrcsted in the question of legal or illegal
when it comes to homosexuality.
O.K.: Well, I am. Because rules of soci�l behaviour will necessarily become more and more
.,;-
explicit, meaning part of an oflicial legislation. You cannot have agreements based on the
community of a lillie town in the age of the Internet and global communication. Knowledge
and information about whatever topic will reach you wherever you arc and make you re-assess
a lot of things. You can't block i t . I think it's also about the question of choice. To be fi·ce in
your choice and to have knowledge about the different options. Even if I'm sceptical about
our Western civilisation, I still consider the whole process of the Enlightenment and equal
human rights, which is a very Eu1·opean thing, a great achievement.
K.E.: I " m not such a big i:lll of the Enlightenment. Being a dominant individual can be very
dangerous. The most serious problem or the Enlightenment is that it replaced nature and
belief with science. i'vicn defined a world for men lo live in. But I think we should accept that
there arc natural, unseen and unexplained forces, whether you call it God or nature. There
arc things stronger th�n mankind, but the Enlightenment said, "No, mankind is the strongest
one."
O.K.: And the next question is, of course, why you decided to live in our vVcstcrn culture.
K.E.: That's my own person;� I dilemma! I'm anraetcd by other cultures, but I've been trilincd
in this one. It might be possibh.: to change, but not now.
O.K.: I think yolll· work contains a lot of information about different communities, places and
people around the world and communicates it. But it's a kind of alternative information. Not
only in the sense that it transfers emotional information, but that it just shows me things th�t
I wouldn't sec otherwise. It's a bit like travelling the world. But actually when we normally
do that, we hardly ever have time to go deeper imo other communities. I keep asking myself;
where and how I can learn something authentic and relevant about the world, and that's why
I like TV documentaries so much. Especially during the last two decades also, contcmpornry
art hils become an important source of alternative information for me.
I<. .E.: I can recognise my work a bit in that. But I didn't start like this and actu�lly I think it
would be a bad ideil for
an
artist to
stan
his work by saying, "I'm gonna make a work about
alternative information about the world for people who cannot travel." I don't have so much
to say other than to agree, but I \vouldn't say that I'm doing exactly this kind of work. My next
step could be to drop the practice of documenting other communities completely. Maybe I
will continue to interact with other communities but not make a work of art out of it. I don't
watll to remain "the �rtist who integrates temporarily into other social groups and makes a
work of art out of it."
O.K.: There arc a lot of other artists that show us excerpts li·om reality from different places
around the world. I keep asking myself if providing alternative information about the world
is enough to be an artwork or if an artwork has to
meet other
criteria.
K.E.: That's a very interesting question. Maybe it's not, and maybe that's good. My works arc
all linked to my person, even in IJinibining: I
;un
also an immigrant. I go from place to place
and I miss my country. I understand and like when the Filipino community exaggerates their
n::nional symbols, because 1 know what it's about. For instance, I exaggerate my Turkish cof-
fee drinking in Berlin, anel l do it very consciously. Regarding the community in A.r/wra, belief
is very in1p0rtant, \Vhich again is a personal thing because of n1y desire tO understand ho\V
belief moves people. Their strong religious belief compared to my secular upbringing and
problems 1 have with it. So I'm not going to completely dillcrent societies, but only those that
I share something with.
O.K.: But all you <�re mentioning seems to be very much content-based, so it's about specific
topics that you <�re personally interested in. My question was more about if it's enough lor a
work of art to show a certain content or topic. But maybe some topics, even if taken out of
reality one to one, arc genuinely aesthetic enough, in the sense of a rcaclymadc. I mean, the
Ashura ritu;�l by the Shiite community or the Filipino beauty comcst arc so amazing that they
maybe meet all the criteria of an artwm·k just as the events <�rc in rc<�lity.
ICE.: J remember having trouble choosing the camera for shooting Aslwra. I couldn't decide
whether I should usc a camera th<lt uses <1 card, where you have to change the c<�rd all the time
and download the files, which t<�kes a lot of time, or cassette, which is easier because you c<�n
just change the cassette and go on !liming. It made me <1nxious for days. At the end I called
Elmas and said, "Elmas, I cnn't decide between a c<�mer<� which usc.:s
<1
card or one that uses
., cassette." And she.: said, "A great part of your work w<�s finding these people <�ncl by going
there you have already completed a great part. So honey, even if you shoot it with your ass,
it's gonna be great."
13erlin,june 20 I I
:;;.
NIC HT
NUR
WElL
IC H
• •
TURKE
B IN
OLI VER KIELMAYER im Gcspr;ich mit KOKEN ERGU
t
�
Ol.!VF.R KJ!'!.�It\YF.R
Deinc Arbciten habcn ol"l cin thcatralischcs und dramatischcs rviomcnt. Vor dcm Hintcr­
grund, class du als Schauspiclcr ausgcbildct wurdcst, ist das wahl kcin Zuf.1.ll.
KOKF.N ERGUN
Ncin. lch bin mit dcm Theater aufgewachsen, unci auch wenn ich niemals nls Schauspic­
lcr arbcitctc, ist dies schr wichtig. Als Teenager war Theater die cinzigc Kunstform, die ich
wahrnalun, cia ich lange Zeit niclns tiber zcitgcnossischc Kunst \vusstc. Ich war immer cin
,klinstlcrischer·" Mensch - so sagcn wir auf tlirkisch; ich mag den Ausdruck nicht, abcr so war
es - und ich dachtc damals, dass Schauspiclerci der einzig moglichc Wcg flir mich sci. Das cr­
stc J\Inl, als ich mit zcitgcnussischcr Kunst konfronticrt wurdc, war anl;isslich dcr llicnnalc in
Istanbul; ich rnochtc sic sehr: lnspiricrt hat rnich auch cine ricsigc Installation von NamJunc
Paik mit Dutzcndcn von Monitorcn an dcr \Vand, auf dcncn hin und wicdcr David Bowie cr­
schicn, oder dcr Filzanzug vonJoscph Beuys, clcr cinsam unci hoch an eincr Wand hing. Zuvor
kanntc ich nur cin weni!:( Kunstgeschichtc, van Gogh udcr Picasso; ich war chcr ;m Litcratur,
Theater· unci Kino intcrcssicrt und so ging ich ;m die Schauspiclschulc.
O.K.: Eigcntlich intcrcss<�nt, class du nicht Rcgisscur sondcrn Schauspiclcr wcrdcn wolltest.
K.E.: Es war wahl vor nllcm dcshalb, wcil es kcinc andere Ausbildung gab. Allcrclings wurclc
rnir bcrcits nach einemJahr bcwusst, class ich hinter den Kulisscn scin wolltc. Ich hnttc Angst
vor clcm Schauspiclcrn, cs traumatisierte mich. UrsprUnglich hattcn sic mich an clcr Schulc
nu(ll"enomrncn, wcil ich bci dcr Aufnahmcpriifung mein ganzcs Gefiihl in die Performance
lcgte unci sic dcshi!lb gut war. Abcr bcrcits im erstcn .Jahr hilttc icb Problcmc clamit, class allcs
von iluflerhalb mciner Kuhur kam; nile Tcxtc unci Sltlckc kamcn aus dcm \·Vestcn. Einzig mit
dcrn klassisehcn gricchischcn Drnrna konntc ich mich iclentifizicren, cia cs unsercr Kuhur
nahc stcht. Ich mochte den ritucllcn Aspckt darin, den Char unci vor allcm die rn�innliehc
Dominanz; aile Parts wurdcnja von Mannern gcspiclt.
O.K.: Und dann kam der· amcrikanische Thcatcrdirektor Robert \Nilson?
K.E.: Ja, ich arbcitctc l"i.ir das Istanbul Festival als Assistcnt unci mcin Job war cs, Klinstlcr
vom Flughalcn abzuholcn. Es gab untcr uns Kollcgcn cine Art Wettbewcrb, wcr die groficn
Namcn abholcn durftc, und dcshalb
Will'
ich ctwas tmurig, als man mir nur Robert Wilsons
Assistcm:dircktorin gab. Mit Ausli\ndcrn zu arbcitcn wnr fih· mich immcr cine groflc Sachc,
bcinahc cine Art fctisch, dcnn zu diescr Zeit wolltc ich wic viclc mcincr Frcundc unbedingt
wcg aus cler Ttirkci. t\ls ich Robert Wilson zum ersten J\.Jal bci den Proben
w
seinem StOck
snh, war icb von seiner Encrgie faszinicrt. Aile irn Sa<�l warcn absolut still unci 13ob
�
wir
nanntcn ihn 13ob - licfi lbum unci Zeit urn sich hcrum gcfricrcn. Er hatte iibernll seine
Groupies, abcr ich wolltc cigcntlich nic ein Fan von jemand nnderem scin, sondcrn dcrjc­
nigc, dcr bcwundcrt wire!. lm sclbcnjahr hattc ich mir cincnJob im Box-Oflicc am Festival
in Edinburg organisicrt, wo Robert \·Vilson Or/(IJu/o aunl.ihrcn solltc; mit nur cincr cinzigcn
Schauspielcrin, Miranda Jackson. lch las das Sti.ick im Flugzeug unci wurdc schlicBiich in
Edinburg von der Assistcnzdirektorin, die ich aus Istanbul kanntc, zu den Proben cingc­
ladcn. Ocr Moment, in clcm dcr Vorhang langsnm nach obcn ging unci cine baumartigc
Struktur in dcr J\•liuc dcr sonst lcercn 13tihnc crschicn, war wahl cincr dcr aufrcgcndstcn in
mcincrn Leben. Ich war vullig vcrbliifft, clcnn was ich auf dcr Blihne sah, war mcincn Skiz-
zen von imnginiiren Theatersliickcn, die ich fnntasiertc zu inszcnicrcn, extrcm !lhnlich. lch
hattc cine Art !isthetischcn Orgasmus an jcncm Abend. Nach dcr Aulnlhrung ging ich hin­
ter die Bohne unci hintcrlieB der Assistcnzdirektorin cine schr pcrstinlichc Nachricht, in dcr
ich fragtc, ob ich cine Chance hii!lc, mit ihnen zu arbcitcn. Ich war so nervus, ich erinncre
mich wic die l3iihncnmcistcrin hinter ihrer Brillc liichclte, als wissc sic, wns hicr gcsehah ...
Drei .1\Ionatc spiiter in Istanbul ziticrte mich dcr Direktor des Festivals in scin Bliro. lch w<tr
nervus, dcnn ich war bcim Festival bckannt als dcr ,.bose 13ubc" und dachtc: ,.Oh ncin, w<ts
hab' ich nur wicdcr getan?" Dcr Dircktor warf mir cincn .llricf cntgegen und fragtc, nls ob
cr vcrargert wiirc: , Was ist das for cin Brief?" Ocr Brief war cine Einlndung ins 1Natcrmill
Ccmcr, dcm von Robert Wilson gcgrlindeten interdisziplin:trcn Laboratorium fur jungc
Klinstlcr auf Long Island. lch konntc cs gar nicht glaubcn, dns war cin Ricscnding, me inc
Kollcgcn hllttcn dafii r gcmordct! Dcr Dircktor lachtc und gratulicnc mir; mit seiner Un­
tcrsttitzung konntc ich nach New York gchcn und wurdc Bobs j ongster Assistenzdirektor.
In mcincr Zeit in New York lcrntc ich die Kunst kcnncn. Nach dcr Arbcit im Watcrmill
gingen wir aile in den Stadttcil SoHo, dcr damals dcr bcstc Ort clafllr wnr. lch sah .Johan
Grimonprcz' Dial H - 1-S- T-0-R-Y und mochtc daran vor �llcm, dass man den Raum nach
Bclicbcn bctrctcn odcr vcrlasscn konntc, was im Thcntcr nicht ging. Langsnm hcgann ich
zu dcr Art, wic wir lllusioncn krcicrtcn, Altcrnativcn
w
schcn; ich hattc uic bcgrirTcn,
wcshrllb wir so vcrzwcifclt vcrsuchten an cincm Schwindcl zu arbcitcn. Dcshalb mochtc ich
auch das antikc odcr chincsischc Theater: Es gcht darin nicht so schr um Illusion, dcnn die
Zuschaucr kcnncn die Gcschichtc eigcntlich schon. Bob arbeitctc iihnlich. Er suchtc cine
andere Form von Illusion, mchr spiritucll, emotionnl. Er crw:ihntc h ll ufig die Encrgic an
Rockkon�.crten unci sprach oft von Ritualcn, in clcncn das Drchbuch wcnigcr wichtig war
als die Partizip�tion. So wic in mcincm Video Aslwra, an dcm ich mornentan arbcitc, wo die
t\matcurschauspiclcr zwar ihrcn Part spiclcn, sich jcdoch nicht dcrnrt zum N;nrcn mac hen
wic wir an dcr Schauspiclschulc.
O.K.: Ich bin nicht gam� sichcr, ob die Schnuspiclcr in Aslwrn nicht auch gcrnc so schauspic­
lcrn wOrden wic ihr cs an dcr Schulc gclcrnt habt. leh dcnkc, sic zcigcn graBen Ehrgciz, cin
gcwisscs schanspiclcrischcs Nivcau zu crrcichcn odcr cincu Charakter darzustcllcn. Das ist
zwicspaltig, dcnn cincrscits ist Aslutra cine schr liebcnswertc Arbcit, wclche die Lctllc wenigcr
als Schauspiclcr, sondcrn mchr ais Menschen zcigt, wcnn sic etwa am Obcn sind. Das gibt dcr
Arbcit auch cine eigcnti.lmlichc Schonhcit. Abcr cs gibt auch cine andere Scitc: lch mng bci­
spiclswcis<: die unbcholfcnen Kostiime und die zwcifclh<tftc Schauspicllcistung; dies schc ich
als cine Qualitiil, die wicdcrum nuf Ironic bnsicrt. Abcr Ironic ist cin dcrart fragilcs Konzept,
d�s htiufig nicht cinmal inncrhnlb cincr bcstimmtcn Kultur vcrstandcn wird, sondcrn nur in
cincm klcincn Spczialcliskurs. lch bczwciflc, ob die Darstcllcr mein Vcrgniigcn am schlcchtcn
Schauspicl tcilcn wiirdcn; ich dcnkc nicht, dnss sic cs als Tcil cincr f\sthctischen Erfahrung,
die auf Ironic bcruht, schiitzcn konntcn, sondcrn sic k�imen sieh wohl chcr nusgclncht vor.
K.E.: Sic rnachcn sich Gcd<tnkcn ubc1- dns mnngclhartc Schauspicl unci die Kostiime, aber
nicht so wic du. Sic tun allcs schr aufrichtig. Abcr sic linden womtiglich das, was wir Iustig
fmdcn, ubcrhaupt nicht lustig. Es ist wic dcr Schonhcitswettbewcrb in Binibiuing Promistd Lnnd,
wcnn sic im Hintcrgrund Fashion TV laufcn lassen oclcr wcnn sic cine Rcgcnschirrndckora­
tion machcn, wcil cs sic an die Philippincn erinncrt. lch dcnkc, cs solltc normal scin, class wir
iiber Dinge lnchcn, die andere lraurig rnachcn. D<ts ist clcmclllar in Aslmrn, wei! d�s, was wir
dort vicllcicht Iustig rinclcn, in Rcalitat cin Traucrritual ist. lch mag bcidc Lcsartcn: lch f1ndc
+
die Kostiimc unci die Schauspiclqualittilcn auf cine Art Iustig; gleichzcitig Iinde ich das alljiihrliche Schauspicl, das an den Schnlct·z des schiitischcn Prophctcn lrnan1 Hussein crinncrt,
sehr dcmiitig unci in tim.
O.K.: Vicllcicht gcht cs wcnigcr darum, was Iustig ist, sondcrn w<�s cine iisthctischc Qualitiil
h<�t. Es ;inclcrt die Struktur dcr Fmgc allerdings nicht: Du nimmst gcwissc Elcmcntc aus ci­
ncm kulturcllcn Kontcxt, rcarrangkrst unci priiscnticrst sic dann im System zcitgcnilssischcr
Kunst. Du zcigst schr olTcnkundig cincn 'v
l l<�ngcl an gutcm Gcschmack unci machst dich auch
cin wcnig dartibcr Iustig, <�bcr glcichzcitig schatzt du dicsen schlechtcn Gcschmack hoch gc­
nug cin, um in cincm Kunstwcrk validicrt
zu
wcrclen. Ich dcnkc, das bcriihrt auch Pragcn
nach kulturclkr Ausnutzung und Kolonialismus im 2 l . Jahrhundcrt.
[(.E.: Ich habc schon haufig darUbcr nachgedacht, abcr ich denkc, ich bin nicht cin <�bgckap­
scltcr, distanzicrtcr Bcobachter. Ich kommc den Lcutcn in mcincn Filmen wirklich schr nahc;
die Bckann schali.cn
t
endcn nicht cinfach, wcnn dcr Film zu Ende ist. Natiirlich wird man im­
mcr dcr i\utor des films blcibcn, sobald man ihn in cincm i'vluscum zcigt, aber ich filmc nicht
cinfach unci rcnnc dann davon. In I, Soldier und The F
lag nutzte ich die Situation quasi voycuri­
stisch aus. Filmcn, dnvonrcnncn, andcrcn zcigcn ... Abcr dies wmcn fi·iihc Arbcitcn
-
I, Soldier
aus dcmJahr 2005, Thr. F
lag 2006 - und ich wolltc unbcdingt meine cigcncn Problcmc mit dcr
tiirkischcn Rcpublik und dcm tlirkischcm Nationalismus zcigcn. Ich wolltc <JII mcincn Hass
herauslassen unci ich wolltc, class die LCutc die Qu<�len sehcn, die ich crlittcn hattc.
O.K.: Dcshalb sind dicsc Arbeitcn <�uch so gut.
I<..E.: Auch wei! sic gcmacht wurdcn, bcvor ich vicl von zeitgcnossischer Kunst wusstc und
bcvor mich so genanntcr l'crform<�nccstrcss crfnsstc. /, Soldier und The Flag sind cigcntlich cine
cinzigc Arbcit, cinfach in zwci Tcilcn.
O.K.: '·Vclchc Vcranstaltungcn hast du dart gclilmt?
K.E.: I, Soldier wurdc am Jugend- und Sportt<�g gdilmt; dicscr erinncrt an den 19. lvlai 1 9 1 9,
als Atatiirk von Istanbul nach Anatolien k<lm unci das Osmanischc Reich fur bccndct crklartc,
das nm Endc des Erstcn Wcltkricgs vor den Britcn, Franzoscn und ltalicncrn kapitulicrtc. Die
tiirkischc Rcpublik bctrachtct dicscn Tag als Beginn des Unahhlingigkcitskricgs. Im folgcn­
dcnJahr, am 23. April 1920, proklamicrtcn sic die neue tiirkischc Rcpublik unci bildetcn das
Parlamcnt. Ein Mythos sagt, class Ataliirk, als cr aus dcm P<�rlament kam, so viclc gliicklichc
Kinder sah, d<�ss cr clicsen Tag; den Tag des Kindcs ncnncn wolltc. The Flng zcigt cine typischc
Fcicrlichkcit am Tag des Kindcs in lstanhul. Sic wird von lstanbuls Biirgcrmcistcr unci Gou­
·
vcrncur organisicrt; cin hochrangigcr General ist immcr mit clahci unci cs werden Gcdichtc
unci Schwiirc von Primarschtilcrn vorgctragcn . Es ist cine pomposc patriotischc Vcranswl­
tung for die Altcren, in der die Kinder mitspielcn miisscn.
O.K.: lch Iinde, I, Solditr hat ctwns Schwulcs. Auf cincm dcr zwci Videoknnalc zcigst du rnchr
odcr wcniger nichts \\'Citcr nls cinen hiibschcn jungcn Soldmcn.
K.E.: Manchmal flirtc ich mit mciner Kamcra, ich richtc mcincn Blick auf Dingc, die ich
mag. Ich sah in dcm hiibschcn Soldatcn imrncr cin wcnig mich sclbst; obrigkcitsglliubig. Ich
habc cine Schwilchc flir Macht und bin faszinicn von Disziplin; abcr ich mag die miinnlichc
t\utorit:il in dcr ti.lrkischcn Gcscllschaft nicht, den �vt'aehismus, wic ihn ctwa der schrcicnde
Soldat in /, So/t!iu vcrkorpcrt. Die Arbcit ist ambivalent, vcrschicclcnc Lcutc lcscn sic untcr­
schicdlich. /\Is mein Vater /, Soldier sah, fand cr die Arbcit schr gut. Und als meinc Tantc das
klcinc �dadchcn in The F
lng sah, mcintc sic: ,Das ist gutcr Nationalismus! Schau di1· dicscn
klcincn Diamantcn an!", w!ihrcnd mcin Bruder kichcnc: ,\Vas rur cine klcinc Faschistin!"
O.K.: In The Flag spiclcn sic im Hintcrgrund Rapmusik. Spicltcn sic das wirklich an dicscr
Vcranstalwng odcr hast clu cs splHcr hinwgcfligt?
K.E.: Ncin, sic spichcn cs dort; in den lctztcn Jahrco wurdcn die fi·ohcr libfichcn l'vlilrschc
durch Popmusik crsctzt. lch llige beim Vidcoschncidcn nic!Hs him:u, hod1stcns manchmal
Soundcffcktc, urn die Dichtc dcr i\rbcit
w
stcigcrn.
O.K.: Die M u�ik korrcspondicn auch mit dcm Bild?
K.E.: .Ja.
O.K.: Wic hast du es geschalfl, die Protagonistcn in dicsen bciden Videos dcrart a us dcr Nlihc
zu
filmen?
K.E.: Es sincl llffcntliche Vcranstahungcn. Unci ich schaffc cine Art Vcnrauen zwischen mci­
ncr Kamcra unci den Lcutcn, etas ist clas Wichtigste. Gli.icklichcrwcisc konntc ich mir cin paar
gutc Sc itcn mcincr ostlichen Wurzcln bcwahrcn; mc inc Privatsphllrc ist nicht so wichtig, unci
wcnn ich in die Privatspharc von jcmand andcrcm cindringc, so erwcisc ich ibm die Ehrc,
class wir dicscn Raum tcilcn. Jm Westen ist Privatsphare gcradczu heilig und man mag Ein­
dringlingc ubcrhaupt nicht.
O.K.: Die Asthctik dcr Fcicrlichkcitcn crinncrt micb an Nazi-Deutschland und ans stalinisti­
schc Russland. Wcshalb sind die Tiirkcn cigcntlich so patriotisch? Odcr sind solehe Ycranstal­
lllngcn gar nicht rcpriiscntativ?
K.E.: Sic sind nicht wirklich rcpr:isentativ, cs sind Extreme. Es sind i\ktc dcr Rcgicrung, die sich
vor ihrcn eigcncn Blirgcrn schiitzcn muss und glcichzcitig von ihrcn Kindem gcl icbt werden
will. Die lctztcn Wahlen zcigtcn, class das so nicht gcht, dcnn man kann all die verschicdcncn
Kulturcn, die im Osmanischcn Reich cxisticrtcn, nicht cinfach ignoricrcn unci bchauptcn,
class sic inncrhalb wenigcrJahre vcrschwandcn. Abcr trotz .Masscnumsicdlungcn w!\hrcnd
des Obcrgangs vom Osmanischen Reich zum Nationalstaat, so gab cs dcnnoch kcinc Genozi­
dc odcr cthnischcn Saubcrungcn, die mit dcm, was in Europa passicrtc, vcrglcichhar warcn.
Odcr sagcn wir so: \Vas in dcr Tlirkei wirklich geschah, ist noch nicht im sclben i'vl11fk aufgc­
arbcitcl worden
wic
die Gcscbchnissc in Europa wiihrcnd des Zwcitcn Wcltkricgs. Dcshalb
kann die Tlirkci, andcrs als Deutschland ctwa, noch immcr ihrcn Stolz auf die nationalc ldcn­
titat proklamicrcn, unci sic tut dies ;m nationalcn Fcicrtagcn. Dabci macht man sich in dcr Tat
.
cine Asthctik aus clcm Drittcn Reich, dcm f"tschistischcn ltalicn unci Su1lins Russiand zunu tzc.
0.1<..: Es ist intcrcssant, class man cine gcwissc Bildspraehc noch immcr vcrwcndcn kann,
wei! sic nicht mit gcwisscn Tatsachen, ctwa cincm Gcno7.id vcrbundcn wird. Es gab zwar den
�
Gcnozid an den Armcnicrn, abcr cr war nicht an cine visucllc Sprachc gckoppclt; ansonstcn
w1irc cs unm6glich, hcutc noch dcrartigc Fcicrn zu inszcnicrcn.
ICE.: Die Idee des tiirkischcn Nationalismus cxisticrt noch immcr, man ho!Tt noch immcr,
cines Tagcs cine wichtigc Nation zu scin. Die Rcpublik basicrt auf allen mOglichcn Formcn
von Gchirmviischc, die mit dcr obligatorischcn Schulc bcginnt.
O.K.: Die allgemeine Schulpflicht haltc ich a\lcrdings clurchaus fiir cincn Fortschritt.
K.E.:Ja, abcr schau dir an, was sic dort lcrnen. Man lchrt sic nicht cinfach das Lcscn, sondcm
wic sic zu Nationalistcn \Verden. Unci danach schickt man dic Jungcn ins 1\Iilitnr.
O.K.: Warst du bcim !V[iliHtr?
K.E.: Noch nicht. lch wcrdc cincn Kurzdicnst lcistcn. Wcnn du im Ausland lcbst unci clrci
Jahre lang Stcucrn zahlst, kann man cincn statt zebu ?vlonatc machcn, vorausgcsctzt man
bczahlt dcm Staat 5.000 Euro. \Venn man in dcr Tiirkci lcbt, wird man nur a us mcdizinischcn
Grllndcn ausgcmustcrt odcr wcil man oOCn schwul ist. FUr lctztcrcs muss man cine Rcihc von
Tests absolvicrcn. Im \
i lomcnt sind cs psychologischc Tests, abcr in den 1 990crJahrcn wolltcn
sic eincn Video- oclcr Fotobcwcis, in dcm man Sex mit cincm !Vlann hat. Nun stcll dir vor, was
flir cine Vidcosammlung die habcn!
O.K.: TAN!iLOVE ist einc andere Arbcit mit cincr dcutlich miliW.rischcn RcfCrcnz. \Vic kam
cs, class du in Dtincmark cincn Panzer fi!mtcst?
ICE.: Ich hattc die Idee bcrcits, als ich bcgann ins Ausland zu rciscn. Ich bcmcrktc, class
viclc Lcutc in den Vcrcinigtcn Staatcn oder Europa cin bisschcn auf mich herabsahcn; sic
gabcn mir zu vcrstchcn, class ich nicht aus cincr vorbildlichcn Dcmokratic odcr cincm schr
zivilisicrtcn Land stammtc. Sic sprachcn iibcr Dcmokratic unci frcic !vlcinungsiiuBcrung unci
kritisiertcn Kulturcn, die andcrs funktionicrtcn. Das vcrunsichcrtc mich immct; vor allcm als
ich bcgann, gcscllschafllichc Problcmc bci ihncn zu cntdcckcn.
O.K.: Abcr die Tilrkci ist doch cine Dcmokratic, odcr?
K.E.: Im Prinzip schon. Abcr zwischen 1960 unci 1980 passicrtc cs drcimal, class die Armcc
die Kontrollc iibcrnahm. lmmcr wenn cin Abstimmungscrgcbnis nicht dcm \Vunsch clcr mi­
limrischcn �dachthabcr odcr c\cr clini.rcn Rcpublikancr cntsprach, iibcrnahm das \
J Iilimr unci
annullicrte clas \Vahlcrgcbnis. Am crstcn Tag rollten sic jcwcils mit Panzcrn durch die Stra­
Ben, dann iibcruahmen sic den Radioscndcr unci dcmonstricrtcn so ihrc Autoritat. Zwci Ge­
neration en dcr Rcpublik wuchscn mit dcr Erwartung cines aile zehn Jahre wicdcrkchrcndcn
lviilitlircoups auf. In den 1 990crn, wiihrend dcr Koalitionsrcgicrung, die von cincr Partci mit
chcr rcli�iOscm Hintcrgrund gclcitct wurdc, glaubtc man an cine Vcrandcrung. 1997 intcr­
vcnicrtc jedoch clas l\·filiUir crncut mit cincr zicmlich postmodern en Aktion in cincm klein en
Dorf, was zu sofonigcn Neuwahlcn fohrtc. Sincan, cin klcines Dorf nahc dcr Hauptstadt
unci von dcrsclbcn Partci wic die Koalition regicrt, sorgtc fiir negative Aufmcrksamkeit, wei!
sic religiOse GroBvcranstaltungcn wic etwa den jerusalem Day untcrstiitztcn. Dicscr bcstand
aus cincr Nacht von Aktioncn, in dencn die Bcfrciungjcrusalcms von den Israelis gcfordcrt
wurdc, <�uflcrdcm aus viclen jungen Frauen mit Kopfweh, die <�uf cincr B!ihnc Surcn aus dcm
Koran oder Widcrstandsparolen ins i'vlikrofon rcziticnen. Das gab cin Bild ab, das den Repu­
blikancrn unci der i\rmcc die Hanrc zu Berge stehen lic.:H. Sincan wurdc dann oft in den Zci­
tungcn als ein radikales Dorf' dargcstcllt. Eincs M01·gcns wurdcn die Lculc im Dorf plotzlich
vom Llirm der Pan;(CJ' in den Straflcn gcweckt, wie friihcr bei eincrn MiliUircoup. Allcrdings
war cs chcr cine Performance, cine Warnung scitens der Armcc. L�inc Rcihc von Panzcrn
knm aus den Kaserncn, rolltc die Hanptstraflc hcrunter und vcrsehwand dann wicdc•: Am
lolgendcn Tag war Sinc<1n wicdcr in den Schlag-.�:cilcn, danach gab es cine clringliehc Rcgic­
rungskonfercnz unci schlicl31ieh.wurdc die Rcgicrung zum R!icktriu gczwungcn. lch mochtc
die Idee, class man lcdiglieh mil hcrumfahrcnden l'anzcrn eincn Staatstrcieh erzwingcn konn­
tc und wolltc dies in cincm L<1nd wicderholcn, in dcm m<1n cs ;un wcnigstcn crwartcn wiirdc;
in cincm 'Vohlfahnsstaat, wic beispiclswcisc Diincmnrk. Zu Bcginn wolltc ieh ganz andere
Dingc mit mehrcrcn l'anzcm machcn; zum Beispiel cincn davon mil seincm Kanom:nrohr
cine Hauslassadc penctricren lassen, wic bci cincm scxucllc.:n Akt. Abcr cbs ging dann nicht;
ich bcginnc oft. mit cincr Idee, cloch dann entwickclt sich dils Projckt unci cntfcrnt sich von ilu:
0.1(.: Du mcinst, das l'rojckt clllwickelt cin Eigcnlcbcn?
K.E.: Gcnau. Zucrst h<�llc ieh ein Drehbuch unci wollte mit Schiluspiclcm arbciten; cs war
ganz andcrs als die lcnigc i\rbcit. Als wir mit dem Panzer auf cincr for den Vcrkchr abgc­
spcrncn ScitenstraBc manovricncn, kamcn die Lcutc aus ihrcn Hi\uscm unci sahen zu.
O.K.: Also wurdcn die Zuschaucr nicht \·on dir cngagicn?
K.E.: Ncin, nur cin p<�ar wenigc Bcwohncr wusstcn, class cin Panzc•· kommcn wiirdc. VVcil die
mcistcn dllnischcn Panzer zu dicscr Zeit in Afghanistan warcn, mictctcn wir cincn von cincm
privaten Sammlcr; die dtinisehc frciwilli�cnarmcc half, den Vcrkchr rundherum zu rcgcln.
Die Aul'n;thmcn maehten wi•· in zwei Teilcn; dcr crste w<1r \'On 7 bis 1 2 Uhr vormiuags in
cincr klcincn Su·aflc mit Schnuspiclcrn. Aber bercits bcim Drchcn mcrkte ich, class ctwas
schicf lief, ich war gar nicht ztlli·icdcn. lm z\\'citcn Teil rolltc dcr Panzer auf dcr 1-� auptstraflc,
:�.wischcn Stadthnllc unci Bahnhof. Hicr wurde cs plillzlich
w
cincr Aktion im offcntlichcn
Rnum; cs war wunclcrbar, cin cchtcr Zirkus! Aile kamcn ganz sclbstvcrstandlich zum Pnnzct;
schautcn ihn sieh an unci mach ten Fotos: Das war cs!
O.K.: 1'vleincr Mcinung nach ist 7il.Nl.l.OI'E cine schr offcnc Arbdt; cigentlich komnnja nur
cin Panzer, dnnn gibt cs die Szcnc, in wclehe•· cr vor cincr rotcn Ampcl hcrumliirmt, danach
cndct das Video cinfach. Es p;ibt keinc Dramaturgic, die Arbcit ist insgcsamt schr skizzcnhaft.
K.E.: Gcnau, deshalb bin ich gcgcnlibcr Auftragsarbcitcn schr skcptisch. i\'fan gab mir cin
Budget unci cincn groflcn Vcrtraucnsvorschuss, dcshalb wollte ich ctwas ganz Tolles machcn.
Jeh bcdaucrc das nicht, denn T:IN!tWI'E ist cine Arbeit, bci cler ich bcgriO; was ich nicht
machcn solltc: fiktion. i\uch wenn cs claw 10.000 Euro brauchtc, so schafftc ich immcrhin,
cincn l';mzcr i n cl<1s Stlidtehen
7.11
bringcn unci die LetHe clnmit
zu
crfreucn. Ich tat ctwas for
die Mcnsehcn don und das wird ihncn unci mir stcts in Erinncntnp; blcibcn; abcr cs kann
vicllcicht nicht in cin Kunstwcrk translormien werden. Das fertigc Video ist nicht mcinc bcstc
t\rbeit und ich clcnkc, die dort gcmaehtc Erlithrung kondcnsicrt am bestcn in clem Gruppcn­
bild, auf dcm aile Bctciligtcn \"Or dcm Panzer posiercn. lch crfuhr, wns cchtc Frcundschaft in
c
tr:
eincr klcincn Gemcinschafl bcdeulet; die Bewohner und ich wurden cehtc Frcunde. Es war
,...,
dcr Bcginn meiner Auscinandersetzung mit vcrschicdcncn sozialen Gruppcn. Zuvor war ich
emotional nicht mit den Leu ten vcrbundcn, die ich filmtc, abcr mit TA.NKLOVE vcri.indertc
sich das; unci dcshalb ist cs cine schr wichtigc Arbcit. Es geht nicht um cine Idee als solchc,
sondcrn darum, was daraus entstcht; das, was man cincr Gemcinscha!t gibt ist wichtigcr als
ch1s, was man der Kunstwclt gibt.
0.1(.: I, So/diu, The Flng und TANI>LOVE sind schr dcutlieh von martialischcn Rcfcrcm:cn
gcpriigt. 1\bcr auch WEDDiNG, cine Art Vidcoeollage zahlrcichcr llirkischcr Hochzciten im
glcichnamigcn Stadttcil Bcrlins, zcigt rabiatc Szencn. Dcnnoch lcgst du in dcincn J\rbeitcn
immer aueh cine verletzliehc Scitc cines bcstimmtcn Vcrhaltcns ofTen; du schcinst schr an der
Ambivalcnz von Macht und Starke interessicrt zu scin.
K.E.: WE
DDlNG ist schr rabiat; versttirend in seiner Art. lch seb;Hze cs, wenn inncrhalb
cincr Gcmcinschall Gcschenkc gcmacht wcrdcn, abcr ich mochtc nicht, wic man cs dort
an dcr cincn Hochzcit tat. lmmcr dicscs Noticrcn, wic vicl hat dicsct· gcgcben und wic vicl
jcncr; zucrst hassle ich das wirklich, dcshalb untcrbrnch ich an eincm Punkt im Video die
i\-fusik, damit man gcn:nt zuhorcn kann. r-.-ran muss jcdoch auch ancrkcnncn, class dicscr
finanzicllc Krcislauf dcr Gcmcinschaft client unci dcm jungcn Brautpaar hilft, cin ncucs
Leben zu bcginncn.
O.K.: For mich ist 1-lfEDDlNG cine schr voycuristischc Arbcit; cs ist cin bisschen wic im Zoo,
cinfach, class man nicht Ticrc anschaut, sondcrn Tiirkcn, die hciratcn. Ich finclc viclc dcincr
Arbcitcn babcn cin voycuristischcs fv1omcnt und ich bin nicht gam: sichcr, ob das dcincr Ab­
sicht cntspricht; du mtichtcst ja mit den Lcutcn intcragicrcn unci clich in ihrc Gemcinschaft
intcgricrcn, wcnn auch nur tcmporar. l'i.indcst du cs nicht crstrcbenswert, wcnn die Betrach­
tcr wcnigcr zu Voycuren wcrdcn und stattdcsscn mchr dcinc cigcncn Emotioncn nachcrlcbcn
konnen?
ICE.: lch clcnkc, das ist lll1111<)glich, man bum gcwissc Er!nhrungcn nicht iibcrtragcn. Sobald
man mit jcmandcm spricht, dcr nicht vor Ort war, gibt cs bcrcits cine Distanz wr ursprling·
lichen Erfnhrung. Nicht cinmal rncin Film ist cine perfekte Repriiscntation dcsscn, was ich
gcltihlt habc. Also wic soli es erst dem Hctrachtcr des Films crgchcn? Das ist cin Problem mit
jcder Form von Dokumcntation oder Rcprtiscntation unci ich wcrclc wcitcrhin daran arbciten.
Vicllcicht wcrdc ich cines 'l�'lgcs sagcn: ,Kcinc Erfithrung kann er!ahren wct·dcn ohnc die
Edithrung sclbcr." Unci dann folgcrichtig: ,Also vcrgcsscn wir's! Lassen wir jcdc Darstcl­
lung!" Nach TA.NKLOJIE war die Rcchuchc, die ich irn 1\rchiv von JJ'Tselrm m<�chtc, cin zwci­
tcr Wcndcpunkl. B'Tseltm ist cine von cinigcn Israelis gcgrlindcte Initiative, die tiber iVlen­
schcnrccbtsvcrlctzungcn in den bcsctztcn Gcbietcn informicrt unci im Rahmen des Projcktcs
Shootin,� Back den Pahistinenscm Viclcokamcras zum Fcsthaltcn cntsprcchcndcr Situationen
vcrtcilt. Sic habcn also cine Kamcra unci immcr wcnn cin Obcrgri!r stattfinclct, ktinuen sic
dies filmcn. lch schaute mir cine Folic von Vidcomatcrial im Archiv von B'1jefem an. Dicscs
l\'latcrial ist wohl dasjcnigc, das uns dcr Erfahrung der paliistincnsischen Bewohncr am niich­
stcn bringcn kann; sic crlcbcn die Situiltion dart ganz dirckt unci ich schlitztc dies hohcr ein
als alles, was ich sclber jc hnttc dort rilmcn konncn; nicht cinmal, wcnn ich cine liingcrc Zeit
dort lcbtc. Deshalb bcschloss ich, lcdiglich cine Auswahl von Videos im Rahmcu cincr Vor­
lcsung
zu
zcigcn. Dabci w;thlc ich chcr J\usschninc, die nicht dirckt mit dcr Verlctzung von
Mcnschenrcchtcn odcr Konfrontationcn mit israclischcn Sicdlcrn zu tun habcn, sondcrn mit
alltliglichcn Dingcn: Sonncnaufgiinge, fcuerwcrkc, schnccbcdccktc HnuscHichcr in Hebron
odcr cine 1 : 1 Dokumcntmion von Fnshion T\� die cine gcsamtc filmkassclle fi.llltc. FUr mich
warcn dicsc Aufnahmen cine klcinc Offcnbanmg unci filhrtcn zu cincr Veriindcrung mciner
Schnitttcchnik; sic wurclc lockerer unci grtibcr.
O.K.: Was gcschicht cigcntlich mit dir sclbcr? Die Intcraktion zwischen dir unci dcr Gcmcin­
schaft ist ja cin wichtigcr Tcil in dcincm Produktionsprozcss, also kann ich mir vorstcllcn,
dass nicht mu· wichtig ist, was mit clcr Arbcit und clcr Gcmcinschaft gcschieht, sondern auch
mit dir sclber.
K.E.: In WEDDING tanztc ich mit, unci zwar nicht nur wei! ich Ttirkc bin, sondern wei! ich
gcncrell cincn spczicllcn Zugang zu den Menschcn clort hatte. Auf cincr dcr 1-Iochzeitcn,
die ich flir WEDDING fthmc, knm cin clcutschcs Fcrnselucam urn cine Dokumcntation zu
machcn; cs wm·cn vier LetHe mit ciner Menge Ausrlislung und ext rem hcllcn Schcinwcrfern.
Ihrc Anwcscnhcit war so dominant, sic warcn richtigc frcmclktirpct: Nicht, wcil sic Deutsche
waren, sondern wcil sic mit den Lcutcn gar nicht kommun izicrcn wolltcn. Auch wcnn es ftir
mich wiehtig ist, wie ich am Enclc das Material zusammcnschncide, so sind mir die Gcmcin­
schnftcn und dcrcn Anllisse cloch schr vic! wichtigcr.
0.1(.: Die allcrlctztc Szcnc in WEDDLNG' zcigt eincn Dcutschcn, der cin ganz schlcchtcr Tan­
zer ist. Einc Schlussszcnc ist cine wichtigc Stelle, also vcrstchc ich dies als Statement.
K.E.: Die Szcne hat cin komischcs lvlomcnt, nbcr ist auch so gcmcint, class man nur Tcil
clicscr Gemcinschaft wcrdcn kann, wcnn man mittanzt. Es ist unwicluig, ob man ein gutcr
Tiinzer ist oclcr
nicht;
cs gcht ums Vcrsuchcn, ums i\'fachcn. Ritualc rcdcn nicht, sic tun.
\Venn man gcfragt wire! mitzumachcn und lchnt ab, so mag clas wohl nkzcptiert wcrdcn, aber
glcichzcitig blcibt man doch auBen vor. Dcr l\Innn im Video tut scin Bcstcs, cr macht mit unci
hichdt; die allcrlctztc Einstcllung zcigl, wic cr liichclt.
O.K.: Wcshalb sind cs drci Projcktioncn? lvlan sicln of(, wie zwci Projcktionen die Menge
zcigcn unci cine cin Individuum.
K.E.: An cincm gcwisscn Punkt fane! ich cinfach kcinc andere Li.isung, die groBc Fiillc an
schr clynamischcm Film material zu arrangicrcn; es warcn hundcrtc Stundcn Film. lch plantc
zun;ichst auch cine Einkanalprojcktion zu mnchcn, musstc jcdoch aulgcbcn. Die [i::icrndc
Menge links uncl rcchts zu plntzicrcn, war cinfach cine Tcchnik clam<�Is. Wcnn ich cs nochmals
schneiclcn wLirdc, wiirc cs vicllcicht anclcrs.
O.K.: Warum gabst du die
Einkanalprojcktion auf?
I<.. E.: AIs ich die Arbcit zum erstcn Mal mit den drci Projcktioncn inst;�llicrt sah, war cs genau
das, was ich wolltc. Ich wolltc die Atmosphiirc in cine Ausstcllungssituation iibcrsctzcn unci
mit drci l'rojcktioncn hat man cin bisschcn diesen Effckt, wei! man sich an ihncn cntlang bc­
wegcn kann. Jch hattc so viclc Hochzeitcn gcschen, class cine einzigc Projektion cinfach nicht
funktionicrt hiittc. In ulNKLOVE unci JJinibining war cs anclcrs.
:=g
O.K.: i\Iit Mchrkanalarbcitcn kann man auch ideal an sich unzusammcnhiingcndc odcr zcitItch vcrschobcnc Dingc zuglcich zcigcn. Es ist tnanclunal cin bisschen \vic bci cincm 1Cxt
mit Fullnotcn, wodurch cbcnfalls cine zwcitc Ebcne von Information ins Spiel gcbracht wire!.
Vicllcicht ist cine solchc Strategic fur dcine Arbcit in dcr Tat schr gceignct; du mochtcst ja
nicht so schr cine cinzigc RcaliUil zcigcn, sondern cin Zuglcich vcr·schicdcncr Aspekte in cincr
ausgcwlihltcn Situation.
ICE.: Ein Zuglcich im fcrtigcn Video, abcr nicht zwingcndcrmaiJcn in dcr Rcalitiit. Die Ar­
bcit bcstcht mrs ctwa 50 vcrschicdcnen Hochzciten unci bci jcclcr cinzclncn war im ganzcn
Saal irgcndctwas los. Es ist cine Art kubistischc Smucgic, also mit viclcn Augen
w
sclu:n
odcr ctwas von vcrschicdcncr; Scitcn unci aus vcrschicdcncn Pcrspcktivcn zu bcu·achtcn.
Als ich 2006
w
filmcn bcgann, hattc ich kcinc Ahnung, wic die cnclgUitigc Form ausschcn
wlirdc und dcr Schnitt dnucrtc ctwa cincinhalb Jahre. lch saiJ am Computer unci stclltc
cinCach Scqucnzcn zusamrncn, ich arrangicrtc sic wic cin Puzzle. David Bowie schricb so
seine Songs, cr schnitt \Vortcr aus, legtc sic auf' den Tisch und stclltc sic dann zusammcn,
cin bisschcn wic Scrabble. Genau so arbcitc ich auch; ich probicrc vcrschicclcnc Sachcn aus,
bis ich dcnke: ,Okay, das sicln gut aus." lhufig gibt cs kcincn andcren Grund, auBc•; class
ctwas gut aussicht.
O.K.: G u t ausschcn istja cin vollig vcrst:indlichcs und cinlcuchtcndes Argument, wcnn cs urn
Kunst und (annale Entschcidungcn gcht. Die Zcitschrift Der Spitgel ziticrtc dich, in WEDDlNG
gchc cs um ,Ritualc dcr Dcsintcgration". Das klingt schr cindr(icklich, abcr was bcdcutct cs
gcnau?
K.E.: Es hat mit mcincr Doktorarbcit zu tun, sic triigt den vollcn Titcl Rilual.r rif Di,,·intcgmtion
-- Cullum[ Bonding in Hledding Rituals rif Tttrkish Immigrants in Balin. Die Idee dcr Dcsintcgr:ttion
zicltc crstens auf die Intcgrationsdcbatte hicr in Deutschland, zwcitcns auf die fi·ciwilligc Iso­
lation, die an den Hochzcitszcrcmonicn gcschicht. ln WEDDING isolicrcn sich die Tcilnch­
mcr vollkornmcn frciwillig unci gcwinncn so cine Entlastung von der sic umgcbcndcn 'NeiL.
0.1(.: Es ist cin bisschcn wie die Schwulcnszcnc.
K.E.: Ja, cs gibt cigcntlich kcincn Unterschicd zwischen den Partys, an die Schwulc gchcn
unci cincr Zusammcnkunft von .lmmigrantengcmcinschaftcn. Sic schliciJcn sich von dcr Au­
Bcnwclt ab und gcnicf3cn ihrc cigcncn J\'Iomcntc fiir clrci odcr vier Stunclcn. lch Iinde das schr
positiv; Ritualc ktinncn cin- unci ausschliciJcn, cs ist cin unci dassclbc Muster.
O.K.: Die Formulicrung ,Ritualc clcr Dcsintcgration" ist ein bisschcn rnissvcrstandlich, \\'cil
man rncincn konntc, cs gchc urn Ritualc, die sclbsl dcsintcgricrcnd sind. Abcr so vcrstchst du
cs ja nicht; cs gcht mn Integration inncrhalb cincr spczifischcn Gcmcinschaft, indcm man sich
von clcr allgcmcincn Gcscllschaft clistanzicrt.
I<. E.: lch vcrslchc cs chcr· als Wortspicl, das auch sarkastisch gcgcnlibcr dcr konvcmioncllcn
dcutschen Intcgrationspolitik gcmcint ist, die andere Kulturcn immcr in ihrc Gcscllschaft in­
tcgricrcn mochte. ,Rituale dcr Dcsirllcgration" ist cin Wortspicl; cs klingt gm, abcr ich muss
noch wcitcr darlibcr nachdcnkcn.
O.K.: Wiirdcst du zustimmen, class cine gutc l!lngfristigc l n tcgrationsstrategic wiirc, One zu­
zulassen, wo sich Lctllc inncrhalb ihrcr Gcmcinschaft trcffcn konncn? lch clcnkc dabci wcnigcr
an Dcsintcgration, sonclcrn chcr an cine ScgmcnticrunJ:{ und Pluralisicrung von Alltagskuhur:
Wir crwllhntcn zuvor die Gay Community, aber cs gibt ja ganz viclc andere llcispiclc: Wir
sind postmoclcrnc \Vcscn, die zu vcrschicdcncn Tagcszeiten mit vcrschiedcncn Rollcn unci
ldcntiHilcn spiclcn. Tagsilbcr arbcitct man als stereotyper Angcstcllter in cinem Biiro, clanach
markiert man zuhausc den Starkoch unci schlic{l]ich gcht man aus und wircl zum sexy Panylo­
wcn. Unscrc Welt ist voll von solch klcincn Rollcnspiclcn unci ich bin mir sichcr, class auch die
Caste von tiirkischen Hochzcitcn in Berlin dicsc als cine Art Erlcbniswclt bcgrcifcn. Und ich
Iinde clas ausgcsprochcn positiv.
K.E.: Da bin ich vtillig cinvcrstandcn. Dicsc "lvlomcntc dcr Sclbstvcrgcwisscrung sind aus­
gcsprochcn wichtig, auch llir andere Gcmcinschaftcn. Ich fragc mich biswcilcn, weshalb
mich dicsc Gcmcinschaftcn dcrart raszinicrcn? \Veil sic so andcrs als mcinc Kultur sind,
odcr vicllcicht weil ich grof3c Vorbch;dte bezliglich meincs cigcnen sozialcn Umfclds habc?
Ich habc cin ernsthafh:s Problem mit mcincr Hcrkunft aus Istanbul. Es ist cin schr gc­
spaltcner Ort, als Folgc des Wcchscls vom Osmanischen Reich �ur tilrkisehen Rcpublik.
Zuvor war cs clas kulturellc und politischc Zcntrum des Ostlichcn Mittelmccrs und dcm
Balkan, dann wurdc cs pliitzlich zu eincr Auf3cnstation dcr westlichcn Kultur, rcgicrt von
wcltlichcn Rcpublikanern, die ihrc cigenen \Vurzcln vcdcugncn unci vcrsuchen progrcssiv
zu scin, dabei jecloch in Tat unci Wahrhcit konscrvativer wcrdcn; konscrvativ bczuglich
Dingcn, die nicht aus ihrcr eigencn Tradition stammcn, sondern aus dem \Vesten zu lle­
ginn des 20.jnhrhundcrts import ic rt wurdcn. Und sic sehen auf Lcutc hcrab, die nicht so
dcnken und Ieben wie sic. kh wuchs don in cincr wcltlichcn Gcscllscharr auf, die Eu ropa
in jedcm Detail zu kopicrcn vcrsuchtc. Dadurch wurclc mir vicles vorcnthalten und ich
dcnkc, deshalb bin ich an gcwisscn Ritual en intcrcssicrt und mOchtc sic wicder cntdcckcn.
Vicllcicht habc ich cin ldcntiUHsproblcm ... Warum sonst vcrsuchc ich, mich der ldcntit:it
anderer Lctllc anzunlihern?
Manchmal mOchtc ich vom Anspruch, ein Kunstwcrk zu produziercn, wcgkommen. Vor al­
lcm dann, wcnn ich inncrhalb cincr andcrcn Gcmcinschart bin, bcispiclswcisc an den Hoch­
zcitcn, und mcrkc, class ich clicsc Emotionen nicmnls rcpriiscnticrcn konncn wcrdc. Vicl­
lcicht 1111tzc ich ja me inc Projckte zur Sclbstcrzichung. Odcr andcrs gcsa!-(t: lch lcbc wirklich
mit mcincn Pr�jckten. Und ich wiirdc gcrn cin ncucs Projckt bcginncn, das kcincrlci Absicht
hlittc, am Enclc ein Kunstwerk zu werclcn. Vicllcicht fohlc ich mich dcshalb auch momcntan
schr wohl im akadcmischcn Umfcld.
O.K.: Nun, auch don gcht cs noch immer urn cin kommuni;�;ierharcs Rcsuhat, sci cs dann
auch cine Doktorarbcit stall cines Kunstwcrkcs. Ich glaubc nicht, class du jcmancl bist, dcr·
runcl um die Welt rcist unci cs nicmandcm crziihlcn will. Du gchstja nicht irgcndwo hin, lcbst
dort tcmporllr innerhalb ciner Gcmeinschaft unci kommst clann cinlach zuriick; cfu willst dci­
.
nc Erf ,hrungden Leuten wcitcrgcbcn.
K.E.:Ja ich weif3, ich will me inc Erlahrungen zcigen. Vicllcicht gcht es um die Fragc, wcshalb
wir immcr Fotos machcn?
O.K.: Oft gcht cs ja darum ctwas
ednncrn
w
w
konscrvicrcn, flir die Zukunft aufzubcwahrcn, um sich
kOnnen; allcrdings vcrgisst man clabci hiiuftg die Erfahrung als solchc, wcil man
daucrnd damit bcschaftigt ist, fotos zu machen! Es ist wie die Lcmc, die andauernd cin App
:g
auf ihrcn1 iPhonc suchcn; sic vcrgcsscn n1anch1nal das Leben in dcr R.caliUH.
K.E..: Es gibt noch <:inen andcrcn Grund und dcr ist. schr wichtig flir unscrc Diskussion: Es gcht
dm·um, andcrcn zu zcigen, was man geschcn hat!
O.K.:.Ja richtig, unci auch das ist ttickiseh. Ein paar mcincr Frcundc schicktcn mir andaucrncl
ihrc Fericnbildcr, doch nach cincr gcwisscn Zeit bat ich sic aufwhon:n mcin E-Mail-Account
clmnit zuzumtillcn. Es gibt nichts Unintcrcss<Jnrcrcs fiir mich als die Fcricnfotos <�ndcrcr.
K.E.: Das ist cin wichtigcr Punkt: Etwas zu dokumcnticren unci der andere sicht die Rcalitiit
dabci nicht. Wcnn clir jcmand cin Foto zcigt unci sagt: ,Das w;u; als wir den bcstcn Prosccco
am Strand von 'E1hiti h<�ttcn!", dann ist man \'Crlorcn, dcnn cs warst nicht du am Strand
in Tahiti, dcr Prosccco trank; es warst nieht du, dcr dort mit seinem Schiltz war. Du sichst
vicllcieht, was dcin Freund sah, abcr die Emotion ist cine vollkomrncn andere. Wic so viclc
andere Filmcmachcr dokumenticrc ich etwas, das ich als intcressant cmpfinclc. Abcr es muss
nicht zwingcndermaf3cn intcrcssant fl.ir jcmand andcrcn scin, dcshalb vcrsuehc ich mcinc
Emotioncn auch mit weitcn:n Dingen zu transporticrcn. !Jinibining crwa kt>nnte nicmals nur
der Film scin; cs braucht vcrschicdenc Ebcncn unci dcshalb crweitcrtc ich die Pr�\sentation,
hrtngte cin Poster unci Cover von philippinischcn 1vfagazincn an die Wand und machte Inter­
views mit den drci wichtigstcn Protagonistcn jamcs, Mary Lou and Doda Lina.
O.K.: Ich dcnke du sol !test auch den Vidcoschnitt nicht untcrschlitzcn; clort gcht cs ja darum,
visuellc Inlbnnation in cincr Art und Weise aulzubcrcitcn, class sic fiir cin l'ublikurn zugiing­
lich unci spanncnd wird.
K.E.: Nali'lrlich, aber das ist ja eigemlich sclbstvcrstiindlich. Auf jeden Fall nchmc ich die
Gclcgcnheit waht; sovicl wic mi.iglich zu zcigcn, wcnn sic bcstcht. Acht Mon<�tc nach dcm
Schiinhcitswcllbcwcrb dachtc ich pli:itzlich, cs ki:inntc intcrcssant scin, personliche Interviews
zu machcn; ich bin froh, class ich sic gcmacht habe. 1ch kann mir Binibining nut· als Film gar
nicht mchr vorstcllen; ich wolltc cine Erwcitcrung, dcnn das cntsprach mcincr E.rfahrung mit
dcm l'rojckt. Ich machte den l'ilm auch nicht nur nir mieb unci das Kunstpublikum, sondcrn
cbcnso flir die pbilippinischc Gcmcinschaft.
O.K.: Ich kann mir gut vorstcllcn, dass die Leutc dcr Gemcinschaften, die du films!, nicht im­
mer nur zuli·icdcn mit dem Rcsultat sind. Nur schon dcshalb, wei! in den Arbcitcn Kritcricn
cine Rolle spiclcn, die eincm iisthetischcn Diskurs des Wcstcns cmstanuncn. Ich dcnke, cs gibt
gerndczu notwcndigcrwcise cine Kon ft·ontation mindestcns zweier Wcrtcsystcmc. Allcrdings
mag ich die Idee, cin Kunstwerk aufgrund von Vorlicbcn zu cntwickcln, die aus eincm absolut
kunstfrcmdcn Kontcxt Stammen. Vicllcicht ist dies am Endc .ia sogar cine ausgezeichncte
kiinstlerisehc Strategic, um zu neucn Formfmclungcn zu gelangcn.
K.E.: Also cs war nicht so, class die philippinische Gcmeinschaft den Film nicht mochte. Mona­
tc nachclcm ich allen Tcilnchmcrn cine DVD gcgcbcn hattc, war der Film nur von gam: weni­
gcn dcr Mlidchcn iibcrhaupt angcschaut worden; die mcisten batten schlichtwcg kein Interesse
daran. Die phil ippinische Gcmcinsrhaft unci mich vcrbindct gegcnscitigcr Rcspckt unci Ver­
traucn unci dies geht we it libcr clas Produkt des Films hinaus. Fiir die mcistcn war cs wcscntlich
wichtiger, die Installationsansichten von dcr Ausstellung in Polen auf Faccbook auszutauschcn;
so wird es auch mit dcr Ausstcllung in Winterthur scin. Es ist ihncn wichtigcr, ihrc Erfahrungcn
mit clcm Auslancl auszutauschcn, egal in wclchcr For m dies gcschicht. Sic habcn Frcudc daran
und cs vcrbcsscrt ihr Leben; unci ich seiher bin dabei cine Art Botschafler.
Abcr ich kann dir sagen tiber was sic sich bcklagt habcn: Evelyn, Kandidatin Nummer l •1·,
war vcriirgcrt, wei! sic nicht in dcr Fotobroschlirc erschicn. Dcshalb vcrhingertc ich ihrcn Part
im Film unci sctztc cincn Extraclip von ihr auf You tube. OdcrJamcs, clcr Organisator, hattc
lccliglich Angst davor, im Interview lett auszuschcn; wic das Video gcschnittcn war odcr was
cr sagtc, war ihm vollkommen ega!. Ich mag solchc Ritualc auch dcshalb, wei! sic quasi prii­
iisthetisch sind; sic habcn ihrc eigcne Schonhcit, abcr nicht hinsichtlich Hsthctischcr Kritcricn
unci Standards, die in unsercm Kunstverstiindnis cine Rolle spiclen.
O.K.: Abcr du bist glcichzcitig sehr an Situationcn und R i tualen intcressicrt, in dcnen As­
thetik cine ausgesprochcn wichtigc Rolle spiclt. An ciner Hochzeit macht man sich htibsch,
an cincm Schunhcitswcttbewcrb gcht cs per se um Schonhcit unci auch bcim Aschura-Ritual
kiimmcrt man sieh gcraclezu rOhrcnd tun gurc Kostiime. Eigcnllich sind cs immcr Situatio­
ncn, in denen LetHe ctwas so schun wic moglich tun wollcn.
K.E.: Unci wir denkcn, d;�ss sic schcitcrn! Viclleicht hat cs mit meincr Erfahnmg als Schau­
spieler zu tun, als ich auf dcr Bi.ilmc schcitcrtc. Vicllcicht ist dies 01uch cin Grund, weshalb ich
solehe Sittmlioncn suchc. Aber cs ist nur cin Schcitcrn aus unscrcr Pcrspcktive. Bcim Aschura­
Ritual sind die wirklichen Emotioncn so vic! wichtigcr alsjcde Rcprascntation davon; sic sind
kollektiv und real, die Schauspielcr wcincn wirklich unci cbcnso das Publikum; cs gibt kcinc
klare Grenzc zwischen Schauspiclcr unci Publikum. All das zu crrcichcn, ist allcs andere als
Schcitcrn. Man gibt cine Emotion von cincr Generation zur nlichstcn wcitcr, namlich das
Wcinen um den Tad 1-lusscins. Abcr auch in WEDDING crhlih man cine Gcscllschal"t mit den
immcr glciehcn Ritualcn am Leben. �-Ian rlickt bcim 'I'Hnzcn zusammcn, man ruckt finanzicll
zusammcn und so wcitcr. Ich sche das nicht als linanzicl!c Ausbeutung oder Vcrderbnis, ich
Iinck nicht, class sic clas Geld cinfach rausschmeisscn; cs hat ctwas sehr Aufrichtiges und dcs­
halb Schones. O brigens bcwcrfen sic das Brautpaar ja mit Dollars, obwohl sic in Deutschland
Ieben, dcnn Geld bcdcutct Dollar! \Vir· mugcn tiber solche kulturcllen Codes lachcn, aber ich
mochtc in meincn Arbciten zeigcn, welch verschicdcnc Bedeutung sic in andcrcn Gescllschaf­
tcn haben konncn.
O.K.: In cincr schr friihen Arbcit von 2004·, Untitled, vcrklcidcst du dich als Frau; cs ist glcich­
zeitig die einzigc 1\rbcit, in dcr du sclbst performs\. Du zichst vcrschicclcnc Kopfhcdcckungcn
an und schminkst dich. Am Encle bcginnst du zu wcincn, wcshalb?
K.E.: \Veil ich gcgcn das Establishment dcr llirkischen Republik war, welches den i\tlc nschcn
gcwissc Rechtc vorcnthiilt; bcispiclswcise das Tragen des Kopftuchs. Es ging um den Stress
clcr Frauen, ob sic es tragcn mlisscn odcr nicht tragen dilrfen. Ich sclbcr schc cs als trHditioncl­
!cs Klcidungssllick und nicht als politischcs Symbol. Aber dcr wcltlichc Staat vcrsuehtc ;tiles,
Lllll
das Kopftueh abzuschaflcn. Mich intcrcssicren die Problcmc der Frauen, nicht die des
Staats. lch finclc, man solltc da cincn Schritt wcitcr kommcn, tiber andere, wichtigere Dingc
nachdcnkcn, sich vorwiirts bewegcn! Ich w:lrc ghieklieh, wcnn die Turkei in Zukunft cin Land
wOrclc, in dem nmslimischc Frauen jcden Job auch mit Kopftuch mach en konnen, w;ihrcnd
im l�cst Europas wohl chcr clas Gcgenteil dcr Fall sein wird.
O.K.: Ich wllrde das nicht iibcrschatzcn. Vicllcicht kommt das Kopftuchvcrbot in Europa
:;;
in den n�ichsten fi.i nf Jahrcn� chc cs dann in 20 .Jahrcn wicdcr abgcschafft wird. '·Venn die
!Vfuslime vcrlilsslichc Partner in cincr globalcn Gcmcinschaft sind, wird sich wahl kaum mehr
jemand tnn das Kopftuch kiimmcrn. Die Lcutc bier in Europa habcn im !\lament cinfach
Angst vor dcm Kopl"tuch, wei) sic cs mil Funclamentalismus und Sclbstmordattcntalcn i n
Vcrbindung bringcn; das ist zwar irrational, abcr wohl mcnschlich. Ich dcnkc dicscs Missvc•·­
stllndnis wird von allcinc vcr·schwindcn, splitcstcns sobald sich die wirtschaliJichc Situation in
islamischcn Landcrn vcrbcsscrt unci Radikalismus rcspcktivc Fundamentalismus an Attrakti­
viHit verlicn. 'Venn mnn gcnug Geld hat, ist das I nteresse, sich in die Lufi zu jagcn, wcitaus
gcringcr.
I(.£.: Muslimc? \Vic kannst clu das gcneralisicren?
O.K.: Also Europilcr sprcngcn sichja nicht schr haufig in die Lull. Ich sah ei1H: Dokumcmati­
on (ibcr Terroristen in Afghanistan, di(: vcrsuchtcn cincn amcrikanischcn Konvoi zu bombar­
dicrcn. Einigc Male waren sic crfolglos, ich glaubc am Endc schaiTtcn sic cs schlicl3lich, cincn
kkincn .Jccp von dcr StraBc zu f"cgcn. Es war ihncn dabci cgal, wcr odcr was sich im Inncrn
dcr Lastwagen bcfand, sic wolltcn cinfach ctwas Amcrikanischcs in die Luft jagcn. \Venn man
die TcJToristcn in dcr Dokumcntation vcrfolgtc, so wurdc klar, class all das cigcntlich wcnig mit
Idcalismus zu tun hattc; vicl chcr hattcn sic schlichtweg den ganzcn Tag nichts zu tun, kcinc
Aufgabc, kcinc Pcrspcktivc, kein Geld.
K.E.: Du solltest auch schcn, class cs ctwas mit Wut zu tun hat. Mcnsehcn in cincm bcsctztcn
Land habcn das Recht gcgcn dicsc Invasion zu tun, was immcr sic wollcn. Du lebst in dcr
Schweiz; was wiirclcst du tun, wenn die Amcrikaner cinmarschicrcn wtirden?
0.1<.: Abcr sic sind ja schon cinmarschicrt. Mit zwcilclhaftcn moralischcn Standards und
bladen Produktcn, Kapitalismus unci Firmcn.
K.E.: Abcr crschicHcn sic dich? Bringen sic dcinc iviuttcr und dcincn Vater mit l"crngcstcu­
crtcn Drohncn um?
O.K.: Sic brauchcn gar kcinc WaiTcn, urn zu totcn. Sic machtcn mcincn Vater clcpressiv und
mcine Mutter fctt. Also missvcrstchc mich nicht, ich bin absolut gcgcn die Invasion andercr
Lilndcr.
I<. E.: Abcr clu sagst, dicsc LetHe in Afghanistan hahcn kcincn Intcllckt und kcin Geld; und
wcnn sic Geld biittcn, dann wOrden sic kc.inc Sclbsunordanschlagc mclrr bcgchcn! Das ist
schr, schr traurig.
O.K.: Also iclr dcnkc, das Wort lntellckt ist nicht gut; vicllcicht geht cs clrcr um Wisscn?
K.E.: Nichtjcdcr solltc in dcr Welt hcrurnrciscn wic du und ich; es ist nicht gcsund. \Vir soil­
ten tolerant gcgcntibcr vcrschicdcncn Gruppcn in vcrschicdcncn Teilcn clcr Welt scin, die mit
ihrcn cigcncn kulturcllcn Codes unci ihrcn cigcncn Regcln Ieben. Ich lraf in Beirut einmal
cine wundcrharc Frau, sic vcriindcrtc mcin Leben: Mcin dortigcr Assistcnt flihrtc mich durch
die Stadt und cines Tagcs nahm cr mich mit zu seiner Mutter; cincr Armcnicrin. Sic wolltc fur
mirh kochen unci sprach das allcrscbonstc Turkisch, das ich jc gehun hattc. Ihrc Familic wunlc
wahrend dcr crstcn Jahre dcr Rcpublik a us Adana vcru·icben, einer wichtigcn armcnischcn
Stadt an dcr s(idostlichcn Knstc dcr Tiirkci. Obwohl Madame Deli fer l'hilosophiclchrcrin w;u;
konntc ich im Raum kcinc llllchcr schcn. Als ich li·agtc, wo dcnn ihrc BUcher scicn, sagtc sic:
,Du sitzt darauf." Unci wirklich, wir sa[lcn auf den Blichcrn, sic warcn zu Stapcln arrangicrt
und mit Tilcbcrn abgcclcckt! Wir sind gcwohnt, unscrc Bucher
zu
zcigcn, wir wollcn zeigcn,
wic bclcscn wir sind. fch bcsuchtc sic danacb after, cs war wic cin Salon; wir sprachcn iibcr
Religion, Glaubc und die tiirkisch-armcnischc Kultur. Sic war nicbt stolz auf ihr cigcncs in­
tcllcktucllcs Wissen; sic hattc sogar chcr cin gcwisscs Dcsintcresse an viclen Dingcn, die ich
spanncnd fand. i\bcr sic war so zufricdcn und crfiillt von ihrcn cigcncn Erfahrungcn. Sic hattc
ihrc cigcnc Welt, unci dicsc war gcnug fur die ganzc \Vclt. Glcichzcitig war sic ausgcsprochen
tolcrilnt. Sic wusstc, dass ich in Israel gcwescn war, abcr sic fragte mich nic clas iiblichc: ,\Vic ist
cs don?" Sic bane nicht diescn Drang allcs zu wisscn, dcnn rur sic war cs wichtigcr sich sclbst
zu
kcnncn. \Vir - ganz bcsondcrs die Kunstszcnc - wollcn andaucrnd mchr tlbcr a lies wisscn.
OJ(.: Also ich will auch gcn\C mehr iibcr die Welt wisscn.
I<.. E.: Abcr elk Frage ist, wcshalb habcn wi1· clicscs Bcdiirfnis nach \Vissen obcr andere KulUJ­
ren unci Lllndcr so schr? Und bringt diescs dann cine gcwissc Auwritlil und kulturcllc Hier­
archic mit sich? Fiihlcn wir uns obcrlcgcn, wcnn wir andere schcn, die nicht habcn, was wir
habcn? Eincr mcincr Profcssorcn in Istanbul crzahltc mir cinmal, China sci cines clcr lctz!cn
Liindc1· gcwcscn, clas Botschnftcn im Auslnnd cro!fnctc; unci der Grund war cinzig und allcin,
class sic iln nnclcrcn Lanclcrn nicht intcrcssicn waren.
O.K.: Nun, hcmzutagc mussen wir mit andcren Nationcn unci Kuhurcn in eincm globalen
l'viaflstilb Ieben unci koopcricrcn . Auch China muss sich mit clcm Rest dcr Wel t beschaftigcn
unci sichc cia, sic sind intcressiert - wcnigstcns
zu
eincm bcstimmten Grad. Fiir mich ist die
spanncndc fragc, wic man lnformationcn tiber die \•Veil vcririzicrcn und \'alidicrcn kann.
Sclbst wcnn ich schr vicl rcisc, so wird meinc Erfahrung stcts unvollstiindig scin. Wcnn ich
also runcl um die \>Vclt rcisc und vcrsuchc, allcs mit cigcncn Augen zu schcn, so wnrc cs dcn­
noch nur ein klcincs bisschcn vom Ganzcn. Nachrichtcn gcbcn mir cin wcitercs klcincs bis­
sehcn I nformation, auch wcnn chcr abstrakt und formalisicrt. Sclbst wcnn dicsc Information
maflgcschncidcrt und biswcilen instrumcntalisiert wird, so ist sic dcnnoch in gewisscr Weise
relevant. Unci dann gibt cs Dokumcntationcn, die mir uJHcr midcrcm Einsichc in frcmdc
Gcmcinschaftcn gcbcn.
K.E.: Abcr wic kann man ctwas tiber andere lcrnen, wcnn man nicht wirklich zu ihncn gcht?
Du hast den i\lghancn crwlihnt, dcr den amerikanischen Konvoi bombardicr('n wolltc. lch
sympathisierc immcr noch mit ihm, dcnn cr wchrt sich gegcn cine Bcsctzung. Wcnn ich in
seiner Situation gcwescn wlirc, hanc ich dassclbc gctan. t\bcr du bckamst diesc Information
von ciner Dokumcntation, du wcif!t nicht wirklich, was allcs gcschah. Unci die Fragc ist, wcs­
hnlb man dir gcwisse Einsiehtcn niihcr bringcn will. Es gibt vcrschicdcnc Arten, an '
i vlcnschcn
intcrcssien
zu
scin; in der Welt dcr Dokumcntationcn \\'crdcn auf der Bcrichtcrstattung tiber
andere Kulturcn Karricrcn aufgcbaut. Dokumcntationcn werdcn an lnstitutioncn und Fcrn­
schscnder vcrkaufl. Unci h�iuf1g suggcricrcn sic dcm l'\'fachcr cbcnso wic dem Publikum ein
Gefiihl von Erlcichtcrung, das wicdcrum auf cincm Gcfuhl dcr Obcrlcgcnhcit basicrt. AKfE
ist das pcrfcktc llcispicl cincr Kultur, die andere bcvormundct.
a:
or.
�
O.K.: lch clcnkc, dcin Bczug zu Situmioncn und l'V[cnschcn ist chcr emotional. Das pcrfcktc
Bild fiir cincn ehcr intcllcktudlcn Zugang \var clas dcutschc Fcrnschtcan1 mit den Schein..
wcrfcrn, das an clcr t(irkischcn Hochzeit fllmte. Abcr ich gcbe
w,
class man gcwissc Fragcn
gar nicht mchr stcllen muss, sobald man emotional Tcil cincr Situation oder Gcmcinschaft
gcworden ist. lviir kommt cia Ahmadincjacl in den Sinn, der bchauptet hat, class cs im Ir:m
kcinc Schwulcn gibt. J\uf cine Art hat cr rccht, dcnn das Won ,schwul" ist schon Iatsch unci
das ganzc schwulc Lcbcnskonzcpt gehiirt iiberhaupt nicht zu ihrcr Kultur, cs ist vollkommcn
westlich.
I(.E.: Viclcn Dank, ich vcrsuche das andaucrnd zu crkl�ircn! In Haifa traf ich cin ncttcs
Schwulcnpaar; sic spraehcn vic! iibcr die Rechtc dcr Schwulcn unci bcklagten sich dariiber,
class sic nicht hciratcn dilrf'ten. Ihrc arabischcn l�i·eunde, ebcnf'alls cin Schwulcnpaat; fandcn
das iihcrhaupt nicht gut unci sagten: ,Wir sind zufriedcn wic cs ist; wir brauchcn kcin Gcselz,
cs ist iibcrfliissig. Wir verbcrgcn es cinfach vor unsercn Eltcrn; unci wcshalb iibcrhaupt hcira­
ten und allcs in die ganzc \-Vclt posaunen?" Das israclischc Paar mcinte: ,Ncin, wir miissen cs
unseren Eltern crzlihlcn, wir miissen uns erhcben und sagcn, class wit· andcrs sind!" Ich war
nicht mit ihnen cinvcrstandcn, ich findc cs nicht notwcndig, o(l"cntlich schwul
w
scin. Die
Gay Community odcr Schwulcnszcnc, wic wir sic kenncn, ist in dcr Tat etwas \•\'cstliches und
ich finde es korrekt w bchauptcn, man habc das im Iran nichl. Das hciBtja nicht, class man
kcinc Homoscxtl(llitlit h<ll; cs gibt vcrsdlicdcnc Moglichkeitcn clicsc zu crlahrcn und auszulc­
bcn, aher die meistcn LetHe im Westen schcincn das cinfaeh nicht
zu
bcgreifen.
O.K.: Es ist wiedcr wic das Kameratcam mit den Flutlichtcm: Eincn Ghristopher Street Day
im lran zu organisicrcn wlire quasi dicsc cinzuschaltcn; das ist cine schr intcllcktucllc Her­
angchcns\\'eisc. ivfan macht �.wm· ctwas sichtbar, nbcr zuglcich zcrstOrt man ctwas, das schr
schon scin kann.
K.E.: In .Jerusalem
zurn
Beispiel vcranstaltcn sic jctzt j�ihrlich cine Sehwulcnparade. In Tel
Aviv wiire das vollig in Ordnung, abcr in .Jerusalem sind die Leutc rcligius unci ich finclc,
das solltc man akzcpticren. Sic Ieben dort wcgcn dcm Tempclbcrg; sic Ieben dart, wei! das
Christcntum dort gcboren wurdc; unci sic Ieben dort, wei! cs cine wichtigc muslimischc Stadt
ist. Es ist cine religiose Stadt. Unci bcziiglich Hcirat: In Kalar crfuhr ich von cincm schwulen
Freund, class cr schliel3lich cine Frau hcirntetc, um wcitcrhin mit andercn 1vHinncrn vcrkchrcn
zu kilnncn. \'Viirc er in cinem gewisscn Alter noch nicht vcrheiratct, dann wiirc dcr sozialc
Druck unertraglich gcworden. Fur uns m;1g dies sehr problcmatisch, ja sog;�r krank erschci­
ncn, abcr in manchen Tcilcn dcr \Vclt ist cs sclbstvcrsUlndlich. Obcr manchc Dingc muss
man nicht sprcchcn, Artikulation ist nicht cine allgemcingilltigc Regel. Ich glaubc sowicso
nicht an die J\llgcmcingiiltigkcit, sondcrn an den Untcrschicd; und daran, mit Untcrschicden
um-.ugchcn.
0.1(.: Ich dcnkc, viclc Ft·agen, gcradc auch solchc, die mit ScxualiUit zu tun habcn, bcginncn
hcutzutage in muslimischcn Liindcrn offizicll zu wcrdcn. Zuvor sprach man nicht darilbcr,
sondcrn tat cs cinfach; abcr in Zcitcn von Internet und globalcr Kommunikation schcint es
unumglinglich, dass man cs diskuticrcn muss. lch dcnke, in den nilchsten l 0 oclcr 20 .Jah­
rcn wird man gcwissc Emschcidungcn dicsbczliglich trclfcn miissen. Man wird bctrclTcnd
gcwisscr Sit:twtioncn priiziscr scin mOssen, ob sic crlaubt sind odcr nicht, ob sic legal sind
odcr nicht.
K.E.: Abcr wic wichtig ist Recht? Es gibt Gcscllschaftcn, die $ich mil Gcsctzcn org;)nisicrcn,
wclchc von dncr cinzigen Person gcschricbcn wurdcn, und andere, wclchc dies mincls Obcr­
cink(inltcn tun, die nicht cinmal nicdcrgcschriebcn sind.
O.K.: lch dcnkc, lctztcrcs hat kcinc Zukunfl.
K.E.: Ich dcnkc, in dcr wcstlichcn Welt nicht, abcr in andcrcn Ulndcrn; unci ich dcnkc, class
wir das ahcpticrcn unci tolcricrcn solhcn.
O.K.: Nun, cs wi\rc wunderb<u� wcnn man es so lassen konnte, abcr ich dcnkc, fi·iihcr odcr
spiller winl man bcziiglich gc,visscr Regcln vcrbindlich scin miisscn.
K.E.: Es gibt das Gcsctz von Gesctzgcbcrn unci clas Gcsctz von Gcmcinschalt.cn. In dcr Tlirkci
haben wir trotz allcr Problcmc noch immcr cin ungcschricbcncs Gcsctz inncrhalb dcr Gcscll­
schaft, der Gcmeinschaft, dcm Dorf; das ist nicht notwcndigcrwcisc schlccht. Bcvor man dn
Urtcil fhllt, muss man zucrst bcobachtcn, wic gut ctwas im cinzclncn Fall fi.mktionicn. lch habc
cincn Artikel iibcr cincn Transscxucllcn in cincm kleincn tiirkischcn Dorl' auf dcm Land gclc­
scn; cr ist dort viillig zufricdcn, aile lichen unci akzcpticrcn ihn. Wcnn cs um HomoscxualiUil
gcht, intcrcssicrt mich die Frage nach legal odcr illcgal nicht.
O.K.: Also mich imcrcssicn cs wahl. Dcnn gcwissc Rcgcln sozialcn Verhaltcns wcrdcn not­
wcndigcrwcisc ausformulicrt wcrdcn mosscn, das hciBt Tcil cincr ollizicl!cn Legislation wcr­
clen. '
i vlan bnn in Zcitcn cler lnformationsgcscllschall kcine Obcrein kiinftc mehr clurchscl­
zcn, die in cincr Gcmcinschaft in cinem kleincn Dorf gcltcn. Wisscn unci Information iibcr
jcglichc Thcmcn wcrdcn die Lcute iiberall crrcichcn unci clazu llihrcn, dass man ,·iclc Dingc
ncu iibcrdenkt; man kann cs nicht stoppcn. Ich clenkc, cs gcht hicr urn die Fragc dcr \\'ahl;
um die Fragc dcr Freiheit dcr Wahl und um das Wisscn tiber die vcrschicdcncn Optioncn der
Wahl. Sclbst wcnn ich gcgcniibcr unscrcr wcstlichcn Gcscllschaft skcptisch bin, so schc ich
den gcsamten Pro7.css dcr Aufklilrung unci glcicher Rechtc for aile doch als groBc Errungcn­
schaft, die in Europa ihrcn Anfimg nahm.
K.E.: Ich bin kcin groBcr Fan clcr Aufkhlrung; clarauf zu insisticrcn, cin dominantcs Indivi­
duum zu scin, bnn schr gcf;lhrlich scin. Das grunds�\tzlichc Problem der Aufkl�lrung ist, class
sic N;nur unci Glaubc durch Wisscnschaft crsetztc; clcr Mensch dcliniertc cine Welt fiir den
Mcnschcn um {huin zu Ieben. lch clcnke frcilich, class wir akzcpticrcn solltcn, class cs nalilr­
lichc, unsichtbarc uncl uncrklarbarc Kr�lftc gibt, ob wir das nun Gott odcr Natur ncnncn. Es
gibt ctwas Hohcrcs als den Mcnschcn, doch die Aufklarung bchauptetc: Nein, dcr Mensch ist
das MaB allcr Dingc.
O.K.: Die zwingendc Folgcfragc ist dann, weshalb clu dich cntschicdcn hast in clcr wcstlichcn
Kultur >:u Ieben.
K.E.: Das ist mein pcrsonlichcs Dilemma! Ich bin von andcrcn Kulturcn faszinicrt, aber ich bin
in dicscr aufgcwacbscn. Vicllcicht ist cs mir cin cines Tagcs moglich zu wcchscln, abcr nichtjctzt.
O.K.: fch dcnkc, dcine Arbeit beinhaltct unci kommunizicrt schr viclc lnformationcn tiber
vcrschicdcnc Gcmcinschaftcn, Ortc unci Mcnschcn rund um die \Vclt. Doch cs ist cine Art
alternative Information; nicht nur im Sinnc, class sic cmotionalc Information transporticrt,
o
sondcrn auch, class sic mir Dingc zcigt, die ich ansonstcn nicln schcn wurdc. Es ist cin bis­
schcn, wic wcnn man in clcr \'11clt hcrumrcist; ;�bcr wcnn man clas normalc.:rwcisc tut, datm hat
man ja zumcist nicht gcnligcnd Zeit, um vcrschicdcnc Gcmcinschaftcn wirklich kcnncnzulcr­
ncn. Ich fragc mich immer, wo und wic ich ctwas Rclcvantcs unci Authclllischcs ubcr die Welt
crfahrcn kann? Dcshalb mag ich mach Dokumcntationcn schr; und die zcitgcntissischc Kunst
ist in den lctzcn bciclcnJahrzchntcn fur rnid1 cbenfalls zu cincr wichtigcn Qucllc altcrnativcr
Information gcwordcn.
K.E.: Ich kann mcinc Arbcit clarin durchaus ein wcnig crkenncn. Abcr ich bcgann nicht mit
dicsem Anspruch unci clcnkc, cs wlirc cine schlcchte Idee fUr cinen Kunstlcr am Anfang
:w
sagen: ,lch werdc cine Arbcit libcr alternative Information in dcr Welt fur Lcutc machen, die
sclbst nicht rciscn ktinncn." Ich kann nicht schr vicl mchr sagcn als zuwstimmcn, abcr ich
wlirdc nicht sagen, class ich gcnau das machc. �vfcin niichstcr Schritt konnte scin, class ich mit
dcr Dokumcntation andcrer Gcmcinschaftcn komplctt aulhorc, vicllcicht wcrde ich mar noch
mit andcrcn Gcmcinschaftcn intcragicrcn abcr kcin Kunstwcrk claraus machcn. Ich mtichtc
nicht unbcclingt dcr ,Klinstlca; dcr sich fur cine gcwisse Zeit in andere soziale Gruppcn intc­
gricrt unci daraus cin Kunstwcrk macht", blcibcn.
O.K.: Es gibt vide amlcrc Klinstler, die uns Realittitsausschnittc von vcrschicdenen Orten
runcl tun die \Vclt zeigcn. Ich fi·age anich immcr wicdcr, ob dicsc alternative Information
Libcr die V\'elt ausrcichcnd scin kann, um ctwas zu scincm Kunstwcrk zu mr�chcn, odcr ob
noch andere Bcdi ngungcn erflillt wcrdcn mlisscn.
,
K.E.: Das ist cine spannendc Frage. Vicllcicht ist cs nicht ansrciehcnd unci vicllcicht ist d<�s
gut. Meine Arbcitcn sind aile stark mit mcincr Person verbundcn, sogar JJinibining; ich bin
auch cin Einwandcrcr, ich gchc von On zu Ort und vcrmissc mcinc Hcitnat. Ich vcrstchc
unci mag cs, wcnn die philippinischc Gcmcinschaft ihrc nationalcn Symbolc libcrtrcibt, ich
kennc das; zum Beispiel iibcnrcibe ich hicr in Berlin schr bcwusst das Trinkcn von tiirki­
schem KafTcc. Fiir die Gcmcinschaft a us Aslmm ist Glaubc schr wichtig unci auch das hat mit
mir pcrsi.inlich zu tun; namlich mit mcincm 'Vunsch zu vcrstchcn, wic Glaubc J'v(enschen zu
bcwegen vcnnag. Es gcht um clcrcn ticfc n Glaubcn im Vcrgleich zu den Problcmcn, die ich
mit mcincr cigcncn wcltlichcn Erzichung habc. Ich gchc zwar in cxtrem untcrschicdlichc
Gemeinschalicn, abcr sic habcn immcr ctwas mit mir zu tun.
O.K.: Und demIOCh ist alles, was du crwnhnst, schr stark von cincm lnhalt gcprngt. Meine
.
frage war cher, ob es fiir ein Kunstwcrk gcniigcn kann, cinfach gewissc Faktcn odcr Inhaltc
1.u zcigcn. Abcr vicllcicht sind gcwissc Thcmcn, :wch wcnn sic 1 : 1 a us dcr RcaliUil Ubcr­
nommcn wcrclcn, per sc ;isthctisch gcnug, im Sinn cines Rcadymadcs. Also die schiitischc
Gemcinschaft in Aslutra odcr dcr philippinischc Schtinhcitswcttbcwcrb in Binibining sincl ja
dcrart spczicll, class sic vicllcicht bcrcits als solchc schon allc Anlorderungen an cin Kunst­
wcrk crfiillcn.
K.E.: Ich crinncrc mich, class ich nicht wusstc, mit wclcher Kamera ich Aslwra lilmcn solhc.
lch konmc mich nicht cntschcidcn zwischen cincr Kamcra mit Spcichcrkartc, wo man die
Kane andaucrnd auswcchscln unci die Daten hcruntcr laden muss, was Zeit braucht, odcr
mit Kassettc, was unkomplizicrtcr ist, cia man die Kasscttc cinfach wcchscln kann. Das nagtc
wtihrcnd Tagcn an mir hcnnn. Zu gutcr lctzt ricf ich Elmas an und sagtc: ,Eimas, ich kann
mich nicht zwischen dcr Kamcra mit Spcichcrkartc odcr dcr mit Kasscttc cntschcidcn." Sic
antwonctc mir darauf: ,Das wichtigstc an dcincr Arbcit war cs, dicsc Lcutc zu findcn; indem
du mit ihncn in Kontakt tratst, hast du den wichtigstcn Tcil dcincr Arbcit ch schon crlcdigt.
Also Schatz, du kannst die Anfnahmcn auch mit dcincm Arsch machcn unci cs wird grol3artig."
Berlin, imJuni 20 I I
c
"
ON
AC C ESS
AND
E XC LUSI O N
IAN WI-I lTE in cnnq:rs<�tion with K(JKEN ERG UN
:6
IAN WHIT!\
fhc questions I want to ask arc in a way more general, ralhcr th(ln tied to a chronology of
..
your work. They arc about more structural or philosophical, or even psychological things that
underpin the work, and how they might have changed, or your understanding of them might
have changed over the period of time that you have been making them. l\·faybe we could do
it in three sections: in the first section to try and talk about process, in the second to try and
talk about theatre in relation to the f"ilm and video work that you make, and in the last section
to t;�lk more specifically about rituals and how the video work is related to your PhD and a
wider understanding of rituals.
To start with, maybe you can talk
a
bit about your process and whether you think that has
changed O\"Cr time? Because one of the key things I think for anyone to understand your work
is the embedded way that you occup)' a position within the community o r the situation that
you're also documenting.
KOKEN ERGUN
But it wasn't like that before. I think the process started with WEDDING, and TA..NKLOJ!E was
a breaking point. Before TA.NKLOVE, if you look at the works, there arc not many, the first one
is my hcadscarf piece, Untillr.d which goes more towards theatre and my acting experiences.
Then if you look at I, Soldier and The F
lag 1 am not embedded, I am part of it because that's
my culture. As a $chao! child I had been repeatedly subject to this kind of patriotism. In that
stadium, as an adult, I was re-experiencing whar I had to go through in childhood. The people
that I filmed, I didn't like them. I had a curious sense of vengeance in me while shooting them.
And I 1·cmember very well, that I felt great relief the moment I finished shooting the ceremony
and left the stadium, almost like running away. I laughed back at the people and the situation
in the stadium, and everything they represented for my childhood. I felt that at that moment I
overcame all those childhood traumas. So in a way, by making a work about these experiences,
and fears, I was able to heal mysclr.
And then came WEDDING which was in between. So what I realise nbout WEDDING now is
that it was the first time that 1 kept going back again to the subject, again and again and again.
It was really grent, it was fantast"ic. They were really memorable moments of my life when I
was going into the wedding hall, meeting this energy. I alwnys compared it with 13erghain, this
big nightclub in Berlin, and that's very important for me. The energy when you go into llerg­
hain, the moment you cntet; it hits your body, your chest, it is the music and the sweating and
all these things. It's a great energy! And clubbing is one ritual which I grew up with because I
was
a big party boy in Istanbul and I'm still close to it. I w<ts never partying for erotic reasons,
l was never partying in order to find friends, I was partying because it '"as really a part of
my life. Later in my life, through WEDDING, I found out that there arc similar energies to
this kind of getting together. As soon as I entered the wedding hall every Friday or Saturday
night, I felt the same energy that I would be subject to maybe four hours later the same night
in Bcrghain. Usually the sequence would be that every weekend I would come to Berlin from
my residency in 13remcn, go to the weddings then drop my camera at my friend's flat, take a
shower and go to Berghain or some other nightclub because I was really discovering the city
with this social nightlife ritual. I kept going to more weddings and I was always comparing it
to the energy of our young groups trying to get together. "Muscular bonding" is happening
there. It's called muscular bonding in anthropology because it's the dance. You know, people
moving together and becoming one through dance. It was aclllally much more fun at the
weddings than the clubs.
Because of the f.'lct that I shot them for six months over and over with little breaks in between,
WEDDING was the Hrst project where I was, you could say, "embedded". But still, I am Tur­
kish, they arc Turkish, maybe a little bit different: Turkish-German, but I do read the cultural
codes very easily. For me what I underswnd from embedded is that you come from outside and
you arc experiencing some life with the people. If you arc already in the community you arc
not embedded. The embedded thing really starts with TA.NICLOVE when
l welll to Denmark,
a place that I'd never been and is completely different from my culll!rc. I'm dose to European
culture, but Denmark was still exotic for me. I mean if there is any,vhcrc exotic for a Turkish
person, it's Denmark; the silence of the streets, work stopping at 3pm, people waking up at
6am, having their lunch at I ! am, having dinner at 5pm. And there I was, really enjoying wor­
king with this group of people living in a small, poor town. On the other hand, that project
was commissioned and supported with quite a large amount of money so I got high and went
out of my usual track.
UN.: vVhich track do you mean you went out of?
K.E.: Well in my previous projects, like in I, Soldier and The Flag as well
as
WEDDING, it was
just me, my camera and the people. But in Ti1NKLOVE 1 saw money, and I thought ! could do
something bigger with it. l'vlany people might think that short films lead to feature films. Or
short video works lead to larger video works. And I did feel that too pcd1aps. I thought with
this project I would go bigger. I was yearning for the kind of fancy presentation that I sec
in museums. Big HD projections, hygienic quality... I was not mature in my standing at that
time. I couldn't say yet, "Well, I like it my way." I was still following a general trend. Trying
to write a script before shooting, even before going to Denmark, I was stressing myself to
become more of an "artist". There are many facets to the story of TilNKLOVE, not only the
c m bedded!
So I went to Denmark and I really worked very obsessively... For example, I wanted to sec all
the locations around me. So I travelled around Denmark. I was going through towns secretly
at night, taking a metre ruler with me. It can be quite dangerous to do this in Denmark becau­
se they arc really small towns and people can be really suspicious of you . . . I had this idea of
the tank penetrating a window. So I was trying to test if my tank, the one that I would rent,
would go through a window. Its cannon was l Am or ! .Bm high. So I was going into the town,
parking my car, a complete stranger sneaking around and measuring windows. I was doing
this with great pleasure. The initial idea was that the cameras would be put inside the windows
of the buildings, the tank would pass in front of them and all sorts of things like this. But then
again I didn't usc professional actors, I used the people who were in the town. l didn't "cast"
anyone. But still it was planned as if it were fictional. And then we tried a lot of mechanical
things, a lot of tests to prevent the asphalt from being destroyed when the tank was manoeu­
vring to go into a house. \.Vc even removed the frame of a window from our fi·iends' house to
be able to penetrate into their bedroom! fn the end I had too many people around me and it
really turned into a Him set. At that moment I realised that I had lost control of my aesthetic
judgement, everything.
This first part of the shooting was fictional, .like theatre-film crew, actors�and that really
st rangl ed me. And most of the expenses incurred for the shooting were for the rtetional parts,
which weren't included in the end. The improvised second part, where the tank stopped on
the main street was more interesting. It would have been easier just to get the tank in place,
have it sit there for 1 5 minutes and send it back the same day. But 1 only realised this once
!:0
I'd experienced it. Actu<�lly the decisi\'e moment of this pmjcct was when we took the group
picture \vith ever-yone sitting on the tank. l�his \vas the n1omcnt that also connects to rny later
work. I wanted this photograph to be taken just to keep a memory of my friendship with the
people there. I never thought it would be an artwork. When I finally printed it I said, "This is
actually 50% of the work." So later when I installed the work I placed this picture on the wall
opposite the film projection.
What started as an idea for fiction turned out to be something qui te documentary. And I put
myself b;�ck into the track.
I.W.: But in a way you were returning to a process liwt had already been established rather
than turning away ti·om th<lt into something which was new. So it was a rcalismion that maybe
the initial work did have a process and that you could feel secure within that, rather than it
being a turning point as in a change of direction.
K.E.: Exactly. A realisation point about documentation. But I also found out that I am more
comfortable spending a long time with the subjects that I'm dealing with and I also discovered
something new about representation: it occurred to me that the traces that the tank left in
the town arc never to be exactly recorded. Actually they arc the most memorable thing that
stays with me, but the �ucliencc cannot sec this. I menn, that was the first time I asked myself
questions about how you can represent this experience, of the joy with the people . . . Well, the
ph01ograph is a good representation of it because if you see their faces, they're all smiling.
But the work also became about the difference between how you can represent something and
what you remember of it.
1.\<\'.: There's another important question here, to do with the sense of two things: one--per­
mission, two-recording. And I think that that is connected to whether you regard yourself,
in making the work, as speaking for your subjects, and who you arc speaking to. Maybe the
first thing is an idea about authority. There is a kind of cultural authority th<lt you assume in
making I, Soldier ;�nd Thr. Flag which was generated b)' a deeply personal reaction in relation to
these very public situations. Somehow that is where the permission came from, which seems to
be extended in the other works through this sort of durational engagement with their subjects.
ICE.: I think I take permission during the process of gaining trust. But not for egotistical re­
asons to turn that trust into an autonomous artwork to be shown to other people. I don't feel
comfort;�blc if I don't have the trust between me and the people I am shooting. In I, Soldier or
The Flag I didn't have that trust because [ didn't personally get permission fi·om the people I
filmed, but the situation was already a public offering. So generally there is permission that
you can shoot. But I was obviously going one step further in those works. I was getting close
to the subjects; they couldn't say anything to me because they were performing at the time.
There were these moments when I felt in the WEDDING recording that I got too close to a
couple of
subjects, especially when t hey wct·c collecting the money. For almost <!11
hour I had
been shooting the money table, prclly close, and they were re(llly wondering why was I there,
always directing my C<ltnera at the money. I felt I w;�s not accepted and I stopped shooting. I
walked awar I could have shot more because they were just about to start collecting gold, but
I wnsn't sad that I didn't. It could have been \'cry interesting. But I think I have some mom!,
ethical... I think I rcln tc to the people who arc subjects of my art works just like friends. If I
cannot communicate with them, I cannot film them so much. First I have to gain their trust by
spending time with them. For example, with the Shiite community, I first went to the Ashura
ceremony in 2009. I shot that without knowing anyone, it was a test. Then I called them, then
I met them in their neighbourhood, Zeyncbiye, we had tea, we had lunch . . . I'd been amazed
by the massive spectacle they'd put on stage, bm was sorry that the video recordings were very
poorly done. Every year they publish a DVD of the theatre play and send it to other Shiites
around the country. So I told them that 1 wanted to come back next year and shoot it with
more cameras, and they would be able to usc that footage to make a better DVD of their
performance. Back in Berlin I was talking to them on the phone regularly, discussing how
to make a better video recording of the theatre piece. We decided that I must be there lor
the rehearsals. So the next ycm� I started going to the neighbourhood one month before the
Ashura day. For the first week I didn't have any video cameras with me. I just sal in the mosque
and watched their rehearsals. \Vc started talking and I explained to them what I wanted to
do. When the right moment arri\·cd I asked their permission and started shooting. But there
were still some people in the community that I didn't feel were comfortable being in the frame,
for example the ladies who were playing the angels, so I didn't film them. So for me, to your
question of permission, it's mutual: the permission is not only given but I am trying my best
to take it. B u t not like bureaucratic permission that, "I got the paper, I got the signature, now
I can do whatever I want."
l.\<V.: I am not so interested in terms of, say, legal requircmcms, or even necessarily in terms
of an ethical idea. I am more interested in how you feel like you're speaking for these people?
Arc there repercussions for it in terms of how the artwork is received? Who the artwork is
addressed to and who is speaking?
K.E.: This is the question I always ask myscl[ \Vho the artwork is speaking to is never really
known. I mean it can be shown in one context or in another. There is an audience out there
which you kind of feel r�s a cloud but you can't really name. You can't sec the shape, you don't
sec the colour or that cloud, you don't know where it's going to come from. So l think that you
must be ready for many occasions and that many people around the world with many different
mindsets can sec this work. I feel quite open to their diiTcrcnt approaches. As for speaking for, I
don't think I can speak for them. I can only speak lo•· myself. So all the things I've done so l:tr,
even including my research into the B'Tselem archives, always had personal things in them. I
don't want to turn this into personal therap)' but I feel that I, as T said, as you sec in the pictures,
I am always in the middk ... I have to be protected by people. You might know this saying: "We
came into this world on our own and we will die on our own." People say this to me when I
feel alone and depressed. But I like the group. I really enjoy it and I wish I had a lnrgc family
f()r example . . . There was mother, lather, brother and me. There was never a large number or
relatives. It was never a big l:tmily. It was also a lamily that worked very hard and we were suc­
cessful kids going to the good schools. It was never leisure cxco;cding work time, it was usually
work exceeding leisure time. I was very ambitious, still am, but less so. This ambition made me
blind to leisure, leisure not meaning simply fun. I was very surprised when I heard in ancient
Greek that "leisure" and "activity'' arc actually from the same word stem. In the old times the
stucknts would have leisure and work together. If you look at the school of the ancient Gn:ck
tradition there is a lot of time for leisure-just the fact that these philosophical dialogues have
leisure in them: it's obvious they arc eating while talking, they arc having fun . But I didn't grow
up like this, ] grew up with targets. I was never smm:body who was just relaxed. Now l know
that during leisure time good things can come to your mind. But back then it was the contrary:
co
<0
�
I h<ld to work so that goocl things would come to my mind. That's one thing.
The second thing is the group situation. I was in a group when r was working with Robert
Wilson, and 1 loved it. It was wonderful. But unfortunately in our modern world, people...
they arc not pushed to, but they kind of have to be on their own. And this is something that
I sec and live in my own life. But if you look at all my works, all the subjects arc not singular
indivicluuls, they arc always situations where groups live together and define their identity
through group rituals.
So there is something personal in my interest in groups. I am actually speaking for myself. I
never thought that I would speak for the Filipino community in Israel. They arc sometimes
very proud that I'm representing them, but I cannot, I'm not Filipino, and I'm not a woman,
it's that simple.
I.W.: And how do you then understand, say, the interplay between information and interpre­
tation or impression in the work?
K.E.: You mcnn how l inform the audience, how the audience imcrprets my work?
I. W.: \Veil, it seems to me that both these things arc present in the work, that there is informa­
tion which is almost kind of educational, providing an audience with a certain kind of ethno­
graphic information. r wonder how you understand the interplay of that with the personal?
!<..E.: It's true. But again, 1 am not thinking of the audience when I'm editing. I shoot eve­
rything that my eye sees. VVhcn I turn to the lcll I want the camera to turn left with me. I
don't want to miss anything. That's why I sometimes shoot excessive amounts in the projects.
:iVly projects arc not made with big budgets, but with a lot of crew. I want four cameras to be
there, three photographers to be there. I don't want to miss any details. Then during editing
my personal curiosity comes into the work. l think the interpretation that occurs comes out of
curiosity. And I feel the right to laugh at things that I recorded which they have done. Ethically
or morally 1 don't feel that I'm showing a bad side of their situation by doing this. The comic
moments arc not only something negative, they bring more reality to the work. . . I do include
some really abstract moments of the recordings. And the way that I'm putting them together
makes the audience laugh. l'or example, when I show Binibining to Turkish people or to Israe­
lis, they do find it funny but they also find what is going on there in the film extremely sad. But
they've never asked, "Aren't we laughing at them?" 01� ''l-\rcn't you presenting them in a bad
way?" The question came twice instead in Germany, once in an art school and once in a talk. I
had to reassure them, I said, "I have no intention or lnughing at them. But I wilnt to bring the
fun out of it because it was fun." And I fed so inside the community that I can also laugh at
them, just like I would laugh at my own community. Or course it is easier when I can answer
back to the audience individually. But when they come to the exhibition of course they might
think, "Oh!? But this is a little bit like 111<1king a gimmick out of it." But it rcnlly depends. l'viy
experience says it really depends on where the audience
and how it sees reprcsentiltion and interpretation . . .
comes
1.\·V.: B u t you're the one who controls what the viewer sees.
K.E.: Do you think?
fi·om, how its mindset works
LW.: Yes. You choose the images and the order that the viewer sees them in. The viewer
doesn't choose what's in the work.
K.E.: Okay. But how do you explain that some people don't react like that and some people
do? This I haven't found out yet.
1.\·\�: That's something else entirely! But you arc the one who is responsible for choosing
things that arc literally in the work. At the same time I don't think there is any accounting for
intcrprct:ttion. l mean there wouldn't be any point in making a piece of' work if you could
prescribe exactly how it was going to be understood or interpreted. You might as well just
write it down and not bother. But I wonder if this sort of relationship between information
and the personal in rour work relates to something which is obliquely political, for example.
K.E.: Can you open that out a bit?
1.\V. : Well, if you were thinking in an art-historical way, ho\v for example t h e personal or the
everyday, as introduced into art practices, have been understood politically to undermine,
say, spectacle or, lor example, a patriarchal system which otherwise excludes any acknow­
ledgement of personal life or interpretation or di£rcrcnce. So that in your work when you
arc talking about it coming from a personal perspective, what's the relationship between that
and the nalllre of the thing that you arc recording? Arc those things kind of in tension with
each other? Is the personal in some way undoing or rc\'caling something about the social or
political structure that you arc also documenting?
K.E.: It must, in one aspect, yes. But there arc so man)' levels of information, especially with
these groups of people that I am shooting. It's not possible for me or for many people, I think,
to
show every aspect. So what do I focus on? I'm just thinking now as we spc:�k ... Yes, there
is definitely something politic:� I, or maybe more sociological in them. First is my amazement
with the group dynamics, my attraction to it, my curiosity about it. Secondly there is a critique
in what I'm doing, especially in the weddings. If you ask, what was the personal problem that
made you put the money sequence so forcefully in that? I was completely annoyed by the way
that the money was taken. Unlike in the film, in reality it was conducted in complete silence,
there was no music. i\t that point I didn't realise that that was quite a positive exchange-of­
gifts system. I diseo\'Crcd this only now during my PhD reading, and that's the point. Yes, in
the video it becomes a very strong critique against, 1 wouldn't say patriarchy, but I would say
machismo. And this is wh<�t 1 grew up with in Istanbul. There was this fake macho, rude,
vulgar culture. Not only because I'm gay. It's not related to it. This situation bothered me for
so long. And then here I am outside of Turkc); in Germany. And even here in Germany I was
subjected to more of it. So it's not money, it's the power. It's the way tl10sc men arc dressed.
It's the way they arc holding the money. It's the way they arc so serious about it. There is no
humour in that p<�rt of the work or in that pan of the ritual. They arc really that serious,
trying to note c\·crything down. And I didn't like them. They relate more to the guy who is
reading the poem in I, So/diu. I was angry with him the same way that I was vcty angry with
the money collection. Am I angry with anything in Binibining? Absolutely not!-Actually yes:
the Israeli regime. Okay the judges. So there you go, again there is some critical and sociolo­
gical approach to it.
0
,,
l.'·V.: To me it's also in the early works, in how you usc the camcr<J. J�r example that the
,,
subjects arc shOl in a way thm you sec the camera is being held by a person. And instead or
constructing an image which monumcntalises or rcinscribcs the monumental nature or that
spectacle, it undermines the monumental. It's an image which includes the dirty margins of
the fi·ame, in the way that a television news camera wouldn't. It constructs an imngc which
is anti-spectacular, and in a way is anti-patriarchal, because it shows the gaps and the mess
and a certain sort of humanity around the thing that you arc documenting. And that to me
is ;�lso where there is this political ch<�rgc. The irony or th<Jt is similar to the money scene in
WEDDING or the judges in !Jiuibiuin,g.
K.E.: How do you sec it critically in llinibiniug for example?
I.W.: I sec it certainly in relation to the judges and what happens in that section which seems
to be extremely critical of the positions from which they're speaking. And the way in which
the g<�ze of the judges is captured; the w<ty they look at these women <tnd the way they look
m
each other. There's also a ccrt<�in kind of melancholy in it. A s<Jdncss and a sort of hope­
leosncss involved in this thing which the people <tnd the participants W<lnt to imagine is Miss
World and yet we know is not Miss World, because it's taking place in this concrete bus ter­
minal, where everybody is talking and there is this weird f<tshion TV projection in the back­
ground at the s<tmc time. The performances arc completely incredible but towlly ridiculous.
It's not promoting the event, the \Vork is much more complex. Like the usc of the camera and
the way the spectacle unravels in /, Soldier and The F
lag.
There's also a political dimension to it. In WEDDING the money section is probably the most
pointed one, but probably also in the extremity of the artifice when the women arc being
made-up, things like that. In Aslwra it's hard to say, because th�L work is in transition.
But like you say, it's not that one thesis can be applied absolutely to all or these works. I think
the work is shifting over time and your understanding of it is shifting over time, which is im­
portant. But I do think there is a criticality in the works themselves . . . They often engage in
documenting things that they also work against.
K.E.: Well, sure, there is a critical approach. In 1Jinibini11g ror example it's not towards the
Filipino community, it's towards the situation they were put in. The judges arc Israelis; of
course they choose who the judges arc, but do they rc<�lly have free choice?! They arc only
allowed to be there for four years, they have very limited rights, almost no rights; it's very
natural ror them to choose Ismeli judges, bcc<tuse they W<lllt to look good to them, they <lrC
under their control. This is what I'm criticising. This is a work in which I criticise Israel.
1 think that decision or using the hand-held camera and really beiog slllbborn <�bout it still
goes back to my theatre education. Even with Robert Wilson it was like that. That everything
must be perfect: "Hold your breath and start." It always starts like this. They want the
<JU­
dience to hold their breath. They want the <�udicnce to switch orr their mobile phones, do
this, do that. I hated it when I w<ts being subjected to i t as an actor because I had to produce
that illusion as well. So maybe "illusion" is the right word here. There is a bigger illusion in
theatre th<tn in my videos. The aesthetic illusion is something thm I always have a problem
with. I have my own aesthetic, or course, but I am a very sarcastic guy. Even in my daily life,
for example even if I love a person, I could just make fun or that person. And that's also very
intim<JtC. To be able to make ru n of people you should be intim<Jte.
Let me tell you how I shoot. I have my own technique of making the c<tmcr<t look still. It's a
hand-held camcr;� and many professionals arc not very happy when the camera people tilt
the camera, but I have found myself a technique of how to stand :mel I sometimes train my
arm before a shoot. ! try not to drink or go to parties or anything the night before. I'm really
disciplined because my ann should be able to stay still for a long time. I am playing between
the hand-held camera and the tripod. But when the tripod is used, I feel very dead because,
as I said, I want to capwre everything as it happens, not ;�s I wam it to happen. The tripod
usually directs the action to happen in the frame. But in the case of my projects this is never
possible. Subjects move fast in time and space. But even in Tii}{KLOVE, something that is
more constructed and less of a documcm ary, I made the decision, which wns criticised by a
lot of people, to usc hand held cameras. For example there is this long perspectival shot of
the tank coming down the main street. I t was very static because it \vas directed, but I didn't
usc a tripod. I think I felt this connection to holding the camera in this way first in ;�cting
school when I wasn't included in a pl;�y they were staging because J was too young. They
were rehearsing this Chekhov play and they gave me
a
camera to film it. And that was a
turning point. I just liked what I s::nv in the camera, not what was on the stage.
I .W.: This is very interesting because it relates to something that you have written or spoken
about before, that I've read in your blog. You talk about your experiences of training as an
actor and finding nothing in the history of theatre between Euripides and 13cckctt that !ell
comfortable on your body. And what you're describing now is that }'OU h:we found a t·olc lor
the camera (connected to you) that docs feel comfortable. What's also implicated in that?
Somehow you holding the camera is also you occupying a role in this drama, you rself as a
kind of equal actor-participant in what's happening. This idea of acting is still quite key in
your work, it hasn't been erased, because the camera is still now connected to your body.
K.E.: No, definitely not, it hasn't been erased, it is still there. I always say I hate theatre, but
J also love it, because there arc diiTerent forms of theatre; that's what I meant when I said
there's nothing interesting between Euripides and Beckett. I meant it more about language,
because they both knew how to spc<tk lor the theatre. And when I snid body, it's geographi­
cally related to me because ancient Greek theatre comes from where I come from. And you
still sec it the re, in the villages, in their folklore. And then why Beckett? Because he knew how
to speak, and it.'s contemporary-we do have thnt. Beckett language in daily life. Also our
depressing world is really portrayed well in Beckett. Coming back to what you s<tid about me
using the enmcm, it's true, at that timc while shooting the piny at school, I felt thnt I was in the
theatre, but I was behind the camera. The camera was part of my body.
Through my interaction wilh the B'Tsfltm footage I realised something e\·en furt he r. Earlier, I
had been so obsessed about my own control of the camera, I never thought that I would give the
camera to somebody else. Even if I had had a second camcraperson, I would not have used a lot
of that footage. ·when I saw t he B'Tstltm footage, I thought, sometimes it's rc:tlly not important
how it's shot or who shoots it. Slowly I started being more comfortable with raw footage and
found footage. Also most of the footage li·01n B'Tsdtm was shot the way I would have done it.
When I joined the cnmcra training of B'Ts&m-they were trained to have their legs apart, the
arm that holds the camera is supported by the opposite hand; exactly the way I do it. .Just like
what I was subjected to when I was shooting WEDDING for one month every night or Asltum
with the Shiite community, they were also shooting what they saw, without much preparation or
pl01n. So is there something general about how people shoot a scene they really want to record,
do they do the same? I'm curious if there is, like, a generalised way of shooting this kind of film.
"''
,,
f::
1.\\Z: I would connect this to more thiln just technical aspects. I think you a•·c describing the
ca1ncra aln1ost as a rncans by ,vhich you're shnultancously included and excluded rron1 a
situation. Perhaps this is something that's shared equally with some of those people who shot
this B'Tselem matc•·ia[: that the camera becomes the means by which they arc simultaneously
attracted ami repelled from a situation that thcy'•·c in, a situation that is captured in order for
i t to be repelled or for it to be ... for change to happen. And to me this also connects to what
you've been describing in terms of your relationship to "the group" in general. That you arc
simultaneously attracted and repelled by the group, that you're kind of invited in, but you're
also simultaneously excluded.
ICE.: You mean ''repelled" in a negative sense?
l.W.: No, it's not pejorative in th<lt sense. I me;�n th<lt the group often asks you to give
something up about yourself in order to become a member of it.
ICE.: And )'Otl think by using the camera l resist this?
I.W.: \Veil, the situation that you arc in becomes one of mediation that has simultaneously to
do with attraction and repulsion, or an inclusion �nd an exclusion. For example, by holding a
camera on stage and filming a production you arc simultaneously acting in it, but also exclu­
ded from it, by the very mcr�ns of you holding the camera. It's pnrticipation and exclusion. It's
access and the mark of your separation also.
K.E.: That's true. It's the same in WEDDING. ?vly experience from childhood is that we
wouldn't go to these "folk" weddings, that's how we called them. \Vhcncvcr l was asked to
join the Halay-thc dancing circle- I would escape. When 1 was shooting WEDDING, I was
in the I-Ialay, but would still hold the camera in my hand. I never said, "I'll drop the camera
now, I'm with you lor the rest of the evening." The same happened in Ashum. When they
were beating their chests one night, they asked me if I wanted to join them. I said, "No, I'm
shooting." There it was more difTicuh, because it was a more closed group, and it was really
diflcrcnt li·om what I had seen before. Halay, I had seen before.
I do want to join the group, and the next level would be to join. The next level for me
would also be to question, in a very relaxed way, representing something or even documenting
something. There arc people who don't like taking pictures of their holidays; I do, even if less
and kss. I wonder if I will
come
to a poi n t when l
e nd
this documentation of groups, be it
because I hm·c less curiosity to travel and to sec othc1· things. . . And e\'Cil if I go there, I won't
shoot anymore. I may mention it to you, but won't have the urge to show it to you. I ask this
question not so much for artistic reasons.
I.W. : You mean nor make images of it?
K.E.: Exactly.
l.\V.: Why do you think the re is such
a
hierarchy between telling
me
verbally and images of it? It's still a representation, C\Tn if it's spoken.
K.E.: But lor me, images refer more to artistic representation.
about an experience
I.W.: But an artwork could be a spoken work.
K.E.: True, but ['ve never done iL. I'm used to photography and video, my mind still works in
a way that makes me think these things should be edited and shown to people. Whereas tel­
ling a friend orally is an interaction of friendship. This will continue, but the other one might
disappear or change. It's actually changing already.
I.W. : Do you have this sense that the act of making the work is an act of afTiliation and co­
joining with the people who arc subject to/of the work? Do they provide a kind of proxy
identity for you, which is transitory, but one that you feel affiliated to?
K.E.: Definitely.
1.\V.: So what's being spoken in the work is somcho1v both this personal voice but also the
voict: of the subjects. I'm thinking especially, say, how the intertitles, the text, in Binibining
function; that the text poses something that seems on one level to have quite a caustic ironic
edge, but it's also directly the voice of the event, you arc presenting directly mntcrinl that was
used to promote the event or circulatccl at the event itself.
K.E.: Definitely, I'm really inteJ·cstccl in co-joining; it's not even collabomtion, it's co-existing.
I embrace the people, or [ cling on to them in danger, they arc like my lifejackcts, my lifes­
avers. No wonder I clung onto the Filipino community when I was in Israel, which is such
a problematic place. Why did I come up with this project rather than doing something else
about
Israel? And why in Turkey am I interested in the Shiite minority? Why do 1 want to join
with these groups rather than with groups that I have a more parallel or intimnte life with?
All the groups of people that 1
am
interested in in my works seem to be people that were
described to me in my childhood as uncultivntcd, not modern, and primitive people. So this
is nil my personnl identity crisis.
1.\\\: You mean that your interests also describe how in part you understand yourself?
K.E.: 1 think so, because I still hnve some dissatisfaction with the cultures that ! live in. I live in
Berlin, which is not so different from Istanbul. Istanbul is also Western now. The more I travel
to the Eastern Mcditcrrancnn the more groups and communities I sec, less individunlistie. I nm
obsessed about what happened in Tahrir Square, for example, nnd with what's happening in
Syria now, or in Palestine. The Israeli community is not interesting for me, even the Kibbutz
wasn't interesting for me, because that's somewhat similar to what I grew up with. It's still more
Western, individunl and nmbitious. I look more at the other. I welcome the other:
So I think in general I want to detach myself from my own circle of life, my own surroundings,
and look at other possibilities. Thanks to my projects I am able to travel nnd on ench of these
journeys I learn new things. I think I usc art as a tool to make myself a better person.
What has also happened alongside this is that my representational range has expanded nnd I
feel more comfortable with it. In Binibining, for example, I went back to the community after
having documented the beauty pageant and conducted intc1views with three different people.
These nnd the mngnzines of the community will be on display in \<\1intcrthur.
l.W.: So there is more of a discursive context included?
K.E.: With the exhibition at Kunsthallc \Vintcrthur I have my own space and I can cxpcri·
��
1ncnt with n1y fears. l\•laybc it was my fear tha£ didn't let n1c n1akc a n1orc relaxed representa­
tion before now. If it had been three or four years ago, I wouldn't have dared to present Aslmm,
because I would have been anxious about it not being finished. Dy showing Ashura unfinished,
I am experimenting with the process. I'm showing it: because now I think it's enough to rc·
present an experience.
LW.: It connects to something that I've been thinking about quite a lot. Looking at the work,
actually what you
arc
describing now, this idea of a provisional situation, like the one in which
something is told to somebody else, is actually the opposite of a theatrical situation. If we re·
gard a theatrical situation as defined by the classic auditorium, what we know of people who
ha\'c worked in this situation is that you aspire to guarantee that the same thing happens at the
same time every single night. It's not a provisional situation, it's absolutely fixed, in the san1c
way that everything is fixed in a video--you sec the same images in the same order over the
same time span. Usually there is not that much that is provisional in simply the presentation
of a video work. Dut what you arc describing now with A.rlmm and maybe some of the rela­
tions that start to occur between the projects in VVintcrthur, perhaps in terms of sound spills
from one room to the othct; actually wh:1t is established is a provisional situation where one's
personal experience on one day could be very, very clificrcnt to the experience of a person
who comes three days latct; because of the random nature or these relationships. \.Vhcrcas
individual works like IVEDDING arc highly theatrical. Its editing structure is highly theatrical
and choreographed. That's one of its great strengths, its rhythm and choreogmphy.
There's another question that connects these ideas about theatre and film/video, and the
individual and the group, which is to do with how you understand amhorship. When you talk
about 1/I.NKLOVE and working with this group of people as a project, you describe them very
much as collaborators. I wonder whllt the repercussions arc of that experience? How you son
of look back on the people who had been in the previous videos and the works that happened
after. How docs this relate to the idea of authorship?
K.E.: I-Imtn . . . I do sec them as friends and collaborators. They arc presenting themsel­
ves to me and actually they give me permission to do whatever I want with the work.
Recently when they asked me for image credits for 1/INKLOVE I wrote, "Courtesy of the
artist and the people of Jydcrup". I t just came naturally, that's how I sec it. l want them
to be present in the work. It's the same idea in Binibit1ing with the interviews and maga­
zines, it's vct·y obviously stressing the fact that we ar·c collaborators. The history of the
magazines dates back to 2005, and through their covers the audieucc will be able to sec
what have been the topics within the community over the years. The choice of putting
the photographs of Ashura Ensemble and TANKLOVE Ensemble centre stage i n the show
also came very naturally. Because it is about these people, and me with them. During
the making of WEDDING, I didn't IHI\'e these ideas, but now I am trying to identify the
people in the film and trying to lind them to give them the film . . . Or arc you interested
in questions of ownership?
I. ';V. : No, I'm interested in the political implications of authorship. And whether the
practical aspects of the work arc in part
a
struggle against an idea of authorsh ip, rather
than something which is about authorship in an economic system or to do with owner·
ship.
K.E.: I don't spend so much time thinking about amhorship. That's maybe why many people
ask me about it! During the B'Tstltm lectures, people re11lly started asking this a lot. l have
permission to show the videos and I have travelled to most of the places the footage came
from in order to meet the people who shot it. And in my talks I make it clear that this
is
my personal selection from the lm·ge archive of B '1sdtm and all 1 want to do is to show the
audience what the people who live under the Israeli occupation have shot. But there were
a lot of questions about authorship and I very honestly said that 1 don't feel uncomfortable
showing this material here. Because l felt morally very comfortable about it. But especially
people dealing with the arts, like professional artists, they really focused on this question. I
found that interesting-they may find my answe1· difficult to accept, it might not be enough
and they might expect more answers from me. But I just find it very normal.
Let me come back to authorship in relation to the Filipino community. I worked so hard
on this fihu, one and a half years, and first I did the book. I was totally excited when it was
out and l shipped lots of copies to james, the main character in /Jinibining. They were going
to arrive the day of his birthday when I knew he was going to throw a party with the other
girls from the pageant. I wrote a very emotional note
10
him, that I really hoped he would
like it. Liking something or not depends a lot on the situation and the people. We question
aesthetics �nd authorship, �nd so do they, but very differently. Two days later I c::tlled him
and I asked him if he got my present. He just said, "Oh, thank you my friend, it was a nice
gift." Then he added, "but you know my friend, some of the girls were unhappy." I thought
they didn't like the book, but they were just angry because they didn't appear in the book!
Because of page limitations, l wasn't able to include portraits of each girl in the book. L·ucr
I scm them the DVD, but hardly any of them have watched it; they aren't interested. They
arc more interested when their picture is on Faeebook with their name lagged. When I sho­
wed Binibining in Poland, I w;ts standing there in fi·ont of the install� lion, shooting, shooting,
shooting stills so that I could have various pictures of c<tch girl as they appeared in the film,
and then put them on Faccbook, tagged with their name. This was important for them, that's
how they approach my work. Very difTcrent from an art audience.
1.\V.: Isn't that something 10 do with a clifTcrcnt usc value for them? Their usc value
is not in
the idea of the work existing as an art object, but in a mediating function.
K.E.: Yes, but still I like that energy. I wonder if that energy com be carried into our
art
world.
I realised during the questions at showings of the B'Tstlr.m mutcrial that the question of author­
ship was really occup)•ing the audience, but not me. It's interesting. 1 would like to discuss it;
why arc some people so imcrcsted in authorship and cannot recognise something that should
be conceived in another way?
l.VV.: l'm interested in, say, how an Abstract Expressionist painting indicates the role of the
artist, the author, to be one of an inclividu::tl genius, which we know by the way in which the
canvas displays "unique" marks from the artist's hand, that no other hand could have made,
that arc appreciated almost as if they were the marks of the hand of God.
This signilics the ide::t of mastery or genius, versus something like n Warhol screen print where
the mark of the hand is completely eradicated by a mechanical, repetitive process, and there­
by an entirely difTerem model of the artist is constructed. Not that we don't consider VVarhol a
genius perhaps, Warhol as author is not erased from the point of sale, but it's not in the same
way as we do an Abstract Expressionist painte1·. What's interesting to me arc the diOl:rcnt cui-
tural, economic, political models that these two acts of making art imply. It's a guest ion about
�
\vhcthcr one believes in authority of the self as an individual genius or not.
K.E.: I don't believe in this. Of course there is something that the artist docs, he puts a certain
amount of work in it, it must be cr-edited etc., but I don't consider myself as a part of this
genius thing. I'm more generous in my concept of sharing with other people ... The genius
thing popped up brieOy while shooting 1;1NKLOVE. llut the moment we all sat on the tank
and took that picture it disappeared again. And since then I've been comfortable with it. It's
interesting that I've never been asked if I'm exploiting people but a lot about authorship. And
maybe the reason l can answer them back in such a relaxed way is because I personally really
don't feel vel")' interested in this.
I.W.: \'\1ould you describe the act of making the work as something related to the desire to
escape?
ICE.: Escape from what? I don't know . . . I am aware that I have
a
problem; no, it's not a pm­
blem, but I have a desire to escape. Escape can come in many forms. It can be escape from
situations, escape from being unable to maintain relationships, e�capc from being unable
to start a new relationship. But I don't really know where this desire to escape comes from.
For example, I escaped from belief into something else. But maybe I'm too young to realise
what's really going on. The {i·iendship and intimacy that I got from the Filipino community
in Israel is equal to nothing else except to my best friends.
The real bonding that 1 had in the Shiite community every evening when I was there, and
them treating me as the professor, the respect I got, was really overwhelming. One clay after
shooting, 1 was invited to a dinner party at a very rich friend's house on the Bosphorus who
deals in and collects an. The same evening I was supposed to meet my brother and I asked
him to join me and go to this fancy party. We could first go to the Zeyncbiyc neighbourhood
to meet with my Shiite friends, then he could also sec what I was working on. I like my family
to sec what I'm doing. So we went thc,·c, sat down, everything was very nice and friendly, we
were drinking tea and my brother was also very comfortable. No women. Then we decided
to go to the party. On the way to the posh house my brother was silent. \Ve walked in there,
into a completely different life. I grabbed a glass of champagne, and when I met my brother
again at the: buffet he said, "Arc you crazy, how can you do this? How can you pass fl·om that
to this in such a short time?'' He knew that I was used to it, doing these kinds of passages
from one life style to another, lor example, when regularly crossing the checkpoint between
Ramallah <tncljerusalem, but he couldn't understand how I could change so easily as he was
feeling uncomfortable. l said, "This is what I'm living in, catering, buffet, this hedonistic
lifestyle, this is what we grew up with. But the other one is something that I wish we could
really be like."
1.\\� : llut you still choose to make artwork about groups that you have this sense of allilia­
tion to, rather than living in one of these groups. Which is an interesting differentiation to
n1aintain.
ICE.: Exactly. Sometimes I think, what would happen if 1 fell in love with someone !i·om this
group? llut many people have this kind of problem, they arc from differen t groups and then
they fall in love, but can't be part of the new group exclusively. It's like the small town guy who
goes to the big city and enjoys life there, but he has to take care of' a family and has to go back.
So maybe I have to go back, because it's a very difficult decision to live in that society. I am to
a certain d egree a believe r, I'm very comfortable with anything th<lt is directed to religion, and
I like to learn more about it. But even being comfortable with it, I cannot rc<1lly live with these
groups yet, for example with a closed group like the Shiites, it's not possible. You cannot just
convert to the Shia, it's like you can't just become jewish. And I can never become a Filipino
of course! But ['m experimenting. I don't know if it intensifies ide nt ity confusion for me, but
even if it docs, I'm okay with it. A long time ago I escaped from Istanbul and I'm still on the
run. But it's not only about Istanbul. If I had lived in New York, I would have clone the same,
I would have escaped from one person or one group situation until I w as old enough to say
that I wasn't going to travel anymore but stay in my house or on my boat and go fishing. But
l want to experiment because life is short and I wam more colours in my life. And I think I
usc <lrt
as
a tool for this.
t .W: : There is an interesting sort of paradox, or dynamic, that the communities you work with
and that you document could represent something that could be read as a famasy, as a kind of
utopian idea about a community that isn't actually connected to any kind of renlity. Rut in the
work, because we're trained to read the ethnographic documentary frame that fits around it,
especially now in contemporary art, we try to read the work as being a bout information. But
actually what we
arc
looking at in your work is something that is also much more closely re­
hlle d to ideas about fanwsy, or indeed illusion. Which brings us back to the theatrical again ...
K.E.: There is an illusion for me in the work, a personal one... I like th e word utopia, because
it describes the situation of the Filipinos in Israel; it's crazy that I met people who live away
from their parents, their children and husbands for many years. They only go maybe once
every t\VO years to sec their family. Before Facebook and Skypc it was impossible even to sec
e ach other. Utopin doesn't necessarily mean happiness, but it's something that I don't have
and I'm curious about it. It's nlso very utopian for me to meet every night in the mosque and
to socialise. It's very utopian for me that on the first day that I walked into the neighbourhood
in Zcynebiye all heads turned to me, but after spending one night in the mosque, the next day
when I walked into the neighbourhood nobody looked at me anymore, because I became one
of them ... It was very utopian that in that neighbourhood they could get out of their house at
any time of the night, go clown to the cafe <1nd meet others for tea. Engin, one of my friends
there, he said to me one clay, "This is a great neighbourhood!" But I looked around and there
was poll ution, extremely loud noise from the planes Oying over which take off from the nearby
ai rpor t, no bank, not even an ATM, hardly any public transport. It seems like a place that
everybody has forgotten about, for example I couldn't live there! The houses arc derelict, it's
a ghetto. But for him it's the best neighbourhood in the world! You sec this positivity in the
Filipino community in Israel as well. In one of the interviews Mary Lou talks about how great
Israel is! This is utopia lor them. We don't have this in our individualistic social life. For us
it's difficult to be so posit ive like this.
I
was really depressed for a while before I was shooting
Jlslwm, but they, their community, really healed me.
I. ·w.: But there arc presumably also things that can't be spoken about in that situation.
ICE.: Like wlwt?
0>
,,
I.W.: "My boyfi·icnd's got herpes"?
ICE.: I'm pretty sure it would be possible. It is possible, but it's more based on trust and time,
like how my mother accepted my homosexuality. If you have a close relationship to somebody,
whatever you have, a good human being will accept you as you are.
I.W.: But it's still a risk and it's something you have to negotiate. It's not inherent in the
situation just because there is somebody to talk to, that you could talk to that person about
anything. What l'm trying to suggest is that the kind of utopian ideal is a fantasy. It's okay
for
a temporary period of time, but it's actually also a situation that is exclusive and repressive
at
the same time.
K.E.: You could sec it like that. 13ut you don't have to open your problems to everyone, you
can't expect help from everyone. There arc some people you can talk about some things to
and there arc people you can't. They might choose not to go into derails, but they respect you
as a person. For example, when I told my Filipino friends that I'm gay, the girls were screa­
ming, "No!!!", but then they immediately started looking for a boyfriend for me! And you
know they arc a very Catholic community . . . But sometimes there is no need to talk about it so
quickly, there is no need to raise the topic. Or you can say it in a different way, with different
words. 1 have no problem with that.
I.W.: lvfaybc another way round of talking about this is in terms of how rituals function. Or
how you understand rituals to function. \Vho is being addressed by a ritual? What is rhc ritual
upholding? What limction docs it serve? \'Vhat social, political structures docs it maintain?
ICE.: It almost serves ever·ything, really. First of all it's rcOcctivc; primarily it addresses the
community that participates in the ritual. What I have seen is that they arc making it for
themselves.
l.vV.: But I don't know what "themselves" means. I don't really believe in the essential idea of
"self" that's irnpl ied in that.
K.E.: Riw;�ls maintain cultural codes. For the Filipinos, they need to have a dose of nostalgia,
of remembering their home, and this is maintained by the beauty contests. Like for the Tur­
kish immigrants at the wedding ceremony, the beauty contest is the number one ritual of the
Filipino immigrants in Israel. It maintains their own community. A million miles away from
home, they have a fear of degeneration, or change, or of being affected. So it is primarily re­
sistance to assimilation. It also creates an occasion to get together and sec each other; because
they work in different parts of Israel. They cannot say, "Come, let's meet" like the Shiites in
their own neighbourhood, because they often work at places quire far away from each other.
That is why they gather at the central bus station, because this is where the busses from all
over Israel arrive. In the situation of the Shiites they also maintain the community. They arc
also immigrants. Most of the ones in Istanbul come from the region on the border· with Ar.er­
baijan. The bus companies in Zcyncbiyc only go to two destinations, and both of them arc in
that b01·clcr region. For instance, there arc no buses to Ankara.
The Shin movement is a political movement from very early times, and this ritual is informed
by the fact that they believed they had been unjustly treated by the Sunnis when they took
power after the death or Prophet l\'lohammed. They expected that Ali would take powel�
because he was related by blood to Mohammed. But he wasn't made the caliphate. Then two
incidents happened. First Ali's first son Hasan was killed and then the younger son Hussein
at The Battle of Karbala in 630. It was a big massacre at Karbala. The day of Ashura marks
this day and every year, with this ritual they arc remembering and repeating the pain related
to the death of Hussein and his whole family, who were direct descendants of Prophet i\tlo­
hammed. Which is \"cry para doxica l of course, because Muslims arc killing other Muslims. In
its beginnings, Islam starlcd as a universal religion but then it separated into these two groups:
the Sunnis and the Shiites.
So, Shia is a resistance movement, a political movement, and all their rituals point to this
resistance. They have 10 maintain their culture. I'm sure it's dill"ercnt in Iran, because there
there's a Shia m<�ority. Jn Iraq and Lebanon it's a minority but with a strong presence such
as Hezbollah. In Istanbul though, they arc just a very few. So they maintain their own cultu­
ral codes th1·ough this ritual, like the Filipinos, and they remember their past. They have to
"repeat" the bloodshed to do so, that's why they dramatise it. This is how they survive. They
do their rituals not only during the holy month of Muharrcm that leads to the Ashura day,
but every single evening, throughout the year. Similarly, I asked the Filipino community, what
would happen if there weren't beauty contests anymore, if somebody said, "You're not allo­
wed to do this anymore." They said, "We cannot live without it!" I asked the T'urkish people
in Berlin, what if something happened and the German authorities imposed a restriction on
Turkish weddings, they simply said, "We could not continue to live."
I.W.: But what kind of "them·· is it that survives? It would seem to me that rituals that arc
about su1·vival arc about reproduction, the need to reproduce in one way or the other, maybe
a literal or cultural reproduction. The question for me is what is reproduced? Which aspects
of these communities arc sanctioned to be reproduced, which things aren't?
K.E.: Sanctioned by whom?
I.W.: Sanctioned by the reproductive fi.mction of the ritual and the power structure that also
supports it. Society needs to reproduce itself, but I think it's selective in what's reproduced.
K.E.: You mean, why do they do these and not other rituals? Why arc they showing this aspect
of their life?
l.W.: Why should for example the Filipino community want to perpelllate the beauty con­
test, which reproduces an idea of beauty that excludes a lot of other people and maintains
a certain kind of social hierarchy? I would say that the ritual serves a political or ideological
purpose in that sense. It maintains a balance of power.
K.E.: Yes, of course, but if you look at
the
beauty
contest
onl y
from the perspective of
a
contest and superiority, it's wrong, because rituals, unlike theatre and an, don't work with the
separation of artist or performer and audience. It's participation all rouncl. The person on
the catwalk and the person who is watching it participate and enjoy it equally. There might
be some people who might think this kind of beauty is imposed on us, but you know the
film, they arc not exceptionally beautiful. They arc obviously different from the professional
American beauty standards they ;�re copying. It's mutated in a very bcautilt1l way for me, be-
c
:X
cause C\'cryonc can join in. I heard that there are so many beauty contests in the Philippines:
£
there arc contests for rnarricd \"·on1cn, single
\\'Olncn,
ladyboys, children etc.-but it's not so
much about showing how beautiful they arc in order to be clcvatccl in society. I don't think
it's like the ancient Greek beauty contest that started the Trojan War, it's diflerent, it's much
more generous. They provide a reason for a society to get together; it's really simple. There
isn't
so
much a socio-philosophical explanation to it. They get togethCI� they cook together,
they collect money together, thC)' raise money for the community through these pageants. I t
functions like the church that collects money, s o it's not just about the beauty. It's the same
with the Turkish weddings. It's about groups of f.<�milies getting together and supporting each
other financially.
L1rV.: But it's always men who give the money.
K.E.: In traditional Turkish culture, the women arc treated with a special courtesy that I per­
sonally cannot sec in vVestcrn societies. They arc elevated and treated respectfully, and they
arc served by men . . . So for example in the wedding hall the woman would pass the money to
the man, ;mel then he would get up and oiTer it on her behalf. So women's place in the social
hierarchy is nctually very high . . . Besides they have their own social circles.
l.\•V.: I think it's connected to ideas about who is percei,·ed as having power and who is pcr­
cei\'cd as having no power.
K.E.: Who is perceived as having no power in your opinion?
I.\V. : What the video WEDDLNG shows is that the women there have no voice. But I'm trying
to wlk more generally by suggesting that socinl fonnations attempt to maintain power relati­
ons, rather than undermine them.
K.E.: I don't agree. In all the rituals I've seen, be it in Binibining, WEDDING or /hlmrn, I have
never S('en anybody who wns pushed down. They all have equal possibilities and equal power
in it.
I.W.: How do you understand equal?
K.E.: The fact that although the men arc giving the money it doesn't mean that they have
more power.
l . W.: But it's something you show in the video as being exclusively male. And it's something in
the video that you seem to be specifically critical of. What I'm trying to return to is this idea
that within the ritual it's not only an idealised, fantastical situntion, but also about inclusion
and exclusion and attraction and repulsion occurring at the same time. \Vhich is also your re­
lationship as an individual to the group as we've been discussing. Like two opposite directions
happening at the same time in these situations.
K.E.: Opposite directions
m
the same time in the same situation. But I also changed in time.
When I was shooting and editing WEDDING, I hated the male dominance in it :tt first, but
now l'm telling you that I find it quite normal because it'sjust the man'sjob to do it. They arc
actually working harder, while the women arc more comfortable sitting down, just watching
:�nd enjoying themsel\'es, and actually being more in control. Now I also think the exchange
and recycling of gifts is a very positi,·e t hi ng for the community, maintaining it financially and
emotionally. Things that 1 found negative then I now lind positive. At this moment in my life,
I don't sec negative power struggles in any of these celebrations. I sec only the positive sides
in Bi11ibi11i11g and WEDDING as well as Aslmrn.
l.W.: But I would say that you do, because of how the works occupy a critical position at the
same time as one that's br�sed on inclusion. Don't you think that in order to fully participate
in a ritual you arc being asked to give something up, some aspects of yourself or some part
of how you're living?
K.E.: Dclinitcly. Some people say it's brainwashing, others say it's good. But it's part of the
game. You lose your individuality while participating in the ritual. You can continue your in­
dividuality later. These doses of what Emile Durkhcim called "efTcrvesecnt effect" arc needed
in all societies, we all do it, also with "modern" rituals. It's definitely an aspect of all rituals
that you must 11llow this to happen.
The idea of dancing in a circle is very intct·esting to me. You can really f<tll dowtt if someone
lets go of your hand, so you really have to trust the person. When it comes to collecting money,
as a group you perform like a financial institution. ln Binibini11g the>• participate by cheering
for their favourite contestants, etc. So you become one and lose yourself. If you resist that, it
becomes problematic.
I.W. : Of course, there is <1lso perhaps <1 relief from choice that could be possible. I'm also very
cynical <�bout the idea of choice in
t·clat ion
to democracy, for example, as be ing something
thr�t we an: meant to aspire to without question. 1 don't really believe that "democracy" is at
the top of the tree.
K.E.: Most systems of belief put <�side questions of personal choice. And peop le arc comfor­
table in not choosing certain things. If you understand it this way, you become very toler;�nt
of " lot of things in life. But we live in a world where people arc taught to choose ;�nd to stand
by their choices. I think this is stressful. We arc subject to so many anti-religious statemcms
and so many people who say you have
to choose . M<Jybc
in other societies in the world they
.
don't choose, like the Shiite group in Aslmm. There might be w<tys to live like this, we have to
be open to that. And I, through my interactions, become more and more open about it. I feel
so tolerant now compared to how I was six or seven years ago. The only thing I'm not tolerant
of' is this republican, secular and arrogant pan of Turkish society.
13crlin,July 20 I I
c­
C(
· Z U TRI T T
UND
AUSS C H LUSS
IAN \VI-l iTE im Gr·spriich mit KOKEN ERGUN
�
IAN WHITE
Die Fragcn, die ich dir zu dcincn Arbcitcn stellcn n10chte, sind chcr a1Jgetncin unci wcnigcr
an cincr Chronologie oricnticrt. Sic sind chcr iibcr strukturcllc odcr philosophische, vicl­
lcicht sogar psychologische Dingc, wclchc fiir deinc Arbcit cine Rolle spiclcn; auch, wic sich
dcinc Arbcitcn wlihrend dcr Entsrchung vcrandcn habcn odcr wic sich dcin VcrsUindnis cia­
von tiber die Zeit vcrllndcrt hat. Ich schlagc also drci Tcilc vor: Zucrst wiirdc ich gcrn tiber
den l'roduktionsprozcss sprcchcn, dann iibc1· das Vcrhaltnis zwischen Theater und Film und
schliclllich ganz spczifisch tiber Ritualc; cbcnso wic sich dcine Vidcoarbcitcn
tomrbcit und z u cincm allgcmcincn Vcrstlindnis \'On Ritualcn vcrhahen.
:w
dcincr Dok­
Bcginncn wir doch mit dcm Produktionsprozcss und ob du dcnkst, dass sich dicscr tiber die
Zeit hinwcg vcriinden hat. Ich dcnkc, grundlcgcnd flir das Vcrst1indnis dciner Arbcit ist die
An, wic du dich in cine Position inncrhalb cincr Gcmcinschaft odcr Situation cinbettcst, die
du glcichzcitig dokumcntierst.
KOKEN E!WUN
Es war nichl immcr so. Erst mit I.YEDDING begann cs so richtig, wobci T
/INKLOVE dcr ci­
gentlichc Wcndepunkt war. \Venn man sich me inc Arbciten vor 1iLVKLOVE anschaul - es sind
ja gar nicht so viclc - gab cs zuniichst Untitled, das cher vom Theater tmd mcincr Erfahrung als
Schauspiclcr gepr�igt war. Auch in I, Soldier und The Flag war ich nicht in cinen pcrsonliehcn
Kontcxt cingcbettct, die Protagonistcn darin unci ich warcn cinlach 'Jcil dcrsclben Kultur. Als
ich zur Schule ging, bcgcgnctc mir dicsc Art \'On Patriotismus hliufig; und spiiter als Envach­
scncr durchlcbte ich dns, was ich als Schi.ilcr crlebt hatte, nochmals. lch mochte die Lcutc,
die ieh in I, Soldirr unci The Flag lilmtc, iiberhaupt nicht, es war wic cine Art Rache, sic zu
filmcn. Unci ich erinncrc mich, wic crlcichtert ich war, als die Auli1ahmcn zu Endc warcn unci
ieh das Stadion vcrlasscn konntc; ich ranntc gcradczu weg. Ich blicktc l:ichelnd auf' die Lcutc
im Stadion unci allcs zurlick, was sic flir mich in mcincr Kindheit rcpriisenticrten. In dicscm
1vlomcnt iiberwand ich ein Trauma aus mcincr Kindhcit: lndem ich cine Arbcit iibcr dicsc
Erfahrungcn unci i\ngstc machtc, konnlc ich mich quasi sclbcr heilcn.
Danach bcgann ich mit WEDDING, das cine Zwischcnstulc war. Hcutc ist mir bcwusst, class
cs das crstc i\Ial wat; als ich zu cincr bestimmtcn Sachc immer unci immcr wicdcr zurlick­
kehrtc. Das war groHartig, fan tastisch. Wcnn ich an den Hochzcitcn war, durchlcbtc ich
wirklich grof3arligc Momcntc vollcr Encrgie. lch vcrglich cs immer mit llcrghain, dcm gro­
flcn Nachtklub in Berlin, unci das ist wichtig: In dcm Moment, wo man cintritt, iibcrwiiltigt
die dortigc Energic dcinen gesamtcn Kiirpcr; die Musik, dcr Gcruch nach Schwcifl und all
das. Es ist cine grollanigc Encrgic! Clubbing ist cin Ritual, mit dcm ieh selbcr aufgcwaehscn
bin, ich war bcrcits in fstanbul cin grollcr Partyganger und bin cs noeh immcr: lch ging nic
wcgcn Erotik aus, ich wolltc auch nic Frcundc findcn, cs war cinfach ein Tcil mcincs Lebcns.
Spiller dann, als ich fur WEDDING filmtc, mcrktc ich, class dicsc Zusammcnkommcn cine
ganz lihnlichc Encrgic batten . .Jcdcs Mal, wenn ich am Freitag- odcr Samstagabcnd in cine
Hochzcit cintrat, flihltc ich diesclbc Energic, wic dann vicllcicht vier Stundcn spiitc1; wcnn
ich ins Bcrghain ging. Meine damali,gc Routine warjcdcs Wochcncndc von mcincm Gastate­
licr in lkcmcn nach Berlin zu kommcn; dann filmte ich die Hoch?.citcn, dcponicrtc danach
mcinc Kamcra bci Frcundcn, duschtc und ging ins Bcrghain odcr cincn andercn Nacht­
klub. lch cntdecktc die Stadt clamals wirklich durch das Ritual des Naehtlcbcns. lch ging
an immcr mchr Hoclrt.eitcn und vcrglich es mit dcr· Energie von andcrcn jungcn Gruppcn,
die zusammenkommcn wolltcn. Es cntstcht cine ,muskuHire Vcrbundcnhcit", so wird dicscr
Vorgang bcim gcmcinsamcn Tarn in dcr Anthropologie bczeichnct; also wcnn sich die Lcutc
gcmeinsam hcwegen und im Tanz eins werdcn. Das war eigcntlich bei den Hochzcilcn vic!
lustigcr als beim Tanzcn irn Club.
Wei! ich, abgcschcn von kleincn Pausen, wiihrend scchs Monatcn immcr wicdcr frlmtc, wurdc
WEDDING :wm ersten Projckt, in clcrn ich so etwas wic cingcbcuct war. Abcr ich bin Till·ke,
sic sind Tiirkcn - wenn auch vicllcicht Dcutsch-Tlirkcn - und dcshalb konnlc ich die kuhu­
rcllcn Codes schr cinfach lcscn. \Vas ich untcr ,cingcbcuct" vcrstchc, isl chcr, wcnn man von
ausscn kommt u nd mil den Lcuten wirklich ctwas crlcbt. Wcnn m;m bcrcits Tcil cincr Gc­
mcinschafl ist, kann man sich nichl wirklich cinbcucn. Mit Til.Nh-LOV
E war cs dcshalb noch
vicl mchr dcr Fall, dcnn ich war nicmals zuvor in Diincmark gcwcscn, das von mcincr Kultur
schr vcrschicdcn ist. Ich stchc zwar dcr curopaischcn Kultur schr nahc, abcr Diincmark war
fiir mich dennoch cxotisch. Furjcmandcn aus dcr Tilrkci ist Dilncmark exotisch; die Stille auf
den Stral3cn, man hun um drci Uhr nachmitlags auf zu arbcitcn und stclll dafor urn scchs
Uhr morgcns auf, issl tnn elf
zu
l'vlittag und um flinf dann
gcnoss cs schr mit cincr Gruppe von LeULcn
zu
w
Abend. Und ich war don und
arbcitcn, die in cincm kleincn armcn Dorf
lcbten. Anclcrcrseits war ich jcdoch mit dcr Realisation cincr neucn Arbcit beauftragt worden
unci man gab mir soviel Geld, class ich bcinahc high war unci meinc llblichcn Pfadc verlicJ3.
I.W.: Welche iiblichcn Pfadc mcinst du?
K.E.: In den vorherigen Projektcn wie 1, Soldier, Tlte Hag odcr ltJl£()1)/NG warcn cs einfach
ich, mcine Karncra und die Lcute. Abcr in Ti1.NKLOJIE gab es plotzlich Geld unci ich dachte,
ich konntc dcshalb ctwas Grul3crcs machcn. Viele Lcutc wurden crwarten, class aus cincm
Kurzfilm cin Spiclfilm wircl; oclcr aus einer kurzcn Vidcoarbeit cine liingere. Ich dachte da­
mals wohl aueh so, ieh dachtc das Projckt miisste ctwas Grollcrcs wcrdcn. Ich schnte mich
nach einer An schickcr Prilscntation, wic ich sic in den Musecn gcsehcn hauc. Grosse HD­
Projcktioncn, hygicnischr Qualital. �·!cin Selbstbcwusstscin damals war noch nicht schr aus­
gcpriigt, ich konntc nicht sagen: ,Ich mag es, wic iclt cs machc", sondcrn folgtc cinem
<�llge­
mcincn Trend. Im Versuch, noch vor mcincr Ankunft cin Drchbuch 7.u schrcibcn, setzte ich
mich sclbcr untcr Druck, um mehr zu cinem ,Kiinstlcr"
viclc Aspekte, nicht mar jencn des Eingcbcuctscins.
zu
werden. Bci 1�1NJ:LOJIE gibt es
Als ich in Dllncmark ankam, begann ich geradczu obscssiv zu arbcitcn. Zum Beispiel wolltc ich
mir aile Ortc anschaucn, dcshalb rcistc ich in ganz Oiincmark hcnun. leh lief nachts durch die
Dorfcr unci nalnn cincn "
l vfctcrstab mit. Das ist in Dnncmark gar nicht ungcflihrlich, elena in den
kleinen Dorfcrn konncn die Lcn tc schr misstrauisch scin. lch hall<: auch die Idee, mit dcm Panzer
in cin Fenster zu f.·du·en. 1\lso versuchte ich zu tcstcn, ob cler Panzer, den ich mieten wiirdc, durch
cin Fenster passtc. Das Kanonenrohr war 1 .'� oder 1.8 Meter hoch. lch ging also als vollkommcn
Frcmder ins Dorf, parkte me in Auto, schlich hcrum und mal3 Fenster ab. Es bereitctc mir grol3cn
Spall. Die urspriinglichc Idee war, die K.1mcra hinter das Fenster zu platzicrcn unci den Panzer
draul3cn vorbcifithrcn
zu
lassen. Ich arbcitctc jcdoch nichl mit professioncllcn Schauspiclcrn,
sondern mit Lcutcn aus clcm Dorf. Ich bcsctztc kcine Rollen, abcr alles war gcplanl unci liktiv.
\<Vir musstcn viclc mcchanische Dinge ausprobiercn, viclc Tests, dam it dcr Asphalt nicht zerstOrt
wcrdcn wiirdc, wcnn clcr Panzer manovricn unci in cin 1-laus llihrt. \Vir emfcrntcn sogar den
Fenstcrrahmen bci Frcunden, um mit dcm Kanoncnrohr in ihr Sdllafzinuncr zu kommen! Am
Ende warcn zu viclc Lcute um mich hcnm1 unci allcs wurdc zu eincm richtigcn FihnseL In die­
scm Moment rcalisiertc ich, class ich mcinc listhctischc Urteilskraft vcrlorcn hal!c, allcs.
Dcr crstc Tcil dcr Aufnahmcn war fiktional, wic im Theater - Filtncrew, Schauspiclcr - unci d::rs
allcs schniirte mir den Atem ab. Und cin Grol3teil des 13udgcts ging flir diesc fiktionalen Auf-
�
nahmcn draur, die am Enclc im Video gar nicht mchr zu schcn sind. Dcr improvisicrtc zwcitc
1Cil, als dcr }Janzcr auf dcr Hauptstraf3c anhiclt, \\'ar sehr vicI intcrcssantcr. Es wUrc cinH1chcr
gcwcscn, den l'anzer einfach fOr 15 Minutcn irgcndwo hinzustellcn und chum wicclcr zuriick­
zuschickcn. Aber das merkte ieh
erst,
als ich cs wirklieh crl�lhrcn konntc. Der cntschcidcnde
Moment war schlieBlich, als wir cin Gruppcnbilcl mit dcm Ensemble von 1/J.NKLOVE mach­
ten; dicscr ivloment vcrbindct 1/lNKLOVE auch mit meincn clanach entstandenen Arbcitcn.
Ich wolltc dicscs Bild urspriinglich als Erinnerung an meine Frcundschafl mit den Leu ten dart
machcn, me inc Absicht war nicht cin Kunstwcrk zu produzieren. Als ich zum crstcn Mal den
Papicrabzug sah, sagtc ich: ,Das sind sicher .'iO% dcr gcsamten Arbcit." Als ieh die Arb cit
spi\ler installiertc, wurdc die Fotografie stcts an dcr gcgeniibcrlicgenden Wand der Projektion
aufgehiingt. Was als Fiktion begann, wurde am Endc schr dokumcntarisch. Unci ich kchrtc
auf den for mich richtigcn Wcg zuriick.
I.W.: Abcr in gcwisscr Weise bist du zu cincr Vorgchcnswcisc zurlickgckchrt, die bcrcits vor­
handcn w;u; chct; als class du dich von ctwas abgcwcndet hast, nm cs andcrs zu machcn. Es
war vicllcicht chcr so, class clu in dcincr bcstchcndcn Arbcit cine bcstimmtc Vorgchcnswcisc
rcalisicrt hast unci dich darin sichcr llihlcn konntcst, nicht so schr ein wirklichcr Wcndcpunkt
odcr R ichtungswcchscl.
K.E.: Gcnau, cs war cine Einsicht tiber Dokumcntation. Abcr ich rand auch hcraus, class cs
mir wohler war cine liingcrc Zeit mit den Leuten zu vcrbringcn und ich lcrntc zuckm ctwas
uber Rcprascntation: Es licl mir auf, class die Spurcn, die dcr Panzer in clcr Stadt hinterlicB,
nicmals cxakt aulgczcichnct wcrdcn konntcn. Sic sind cigcntlich fiir mich das Dcnkwurdigstc,
abcr clas Publikum kann sic nicht schcn. Also war cs das crstc !1-Ial, class ich mir Fragc n stclltc,
wic m;m cine Erlahrung darstellen kann; die Frcudc dcr Lcutc zum Beispiel. Nun, das Grup­
pcnb.ild ist cine gutc Darstcllung, dcnn man sicht ihre lachcndcn Gcsichtcr. Abcr die Arbcit
zcigtc auch etwas llbcr den Untcrschiccl zwischen clcm, was man darstcllcn kann, unci dcm,
an was man sich crinncrt.
I. W.: Es gibt cine andere wiclnigc Fragc hicr, sic hat mit zwci Dingcn zu tun: Erstcns: Erlaub­
nis; zwcitcns: Aufnahmc. Ich dcnkc cs gcht darum, ob du dieh inncrhalb des Arbcitsprozesscs
als Stimmc for andere sichst und zu wcm du sprichst. Vicllcicht gcht cs um cine Idee von
Autorit�il? Bci I, Soldier und The Flag nimmst du cine Art kulturcllcr Autorimt in Anspruch;
die Arbcitcn wurclcn als schr pcrsonlichc Rcaktion auf clicsc oficntlichcn Vcranstaltungen
gcmacht, das war die cigcntlichc Erlaubnis. Das schcint mir in den andcrcn Arbcitcn clurch
die tcmporarc Zusammcnarbcit mit den Gcmcinschallcn crweitcn worden zu scin.
K.E.: Ich clcnkc, class ich die Erlaubnis durch das Gcwinncn von Vcrtr<tucn bckommc. Abcr
nicht aus dcm cgoistischcn Grund, urn dicscs Vcrtrauen in cin <tutonomcs Kunstwcrk zu ubcr­
llihrcn, das man clann ;�nclcrcn Leutcn zcigt. Ich ruhlc mich nicht wahl, wcnn zwischen mir
unci den Lcutcn, die ich filmc, kcin Vcrtraucn hcrrscht. In 1, Soldier unci The F
lag gab cs clicscs
Vcrtrancn nicht, dcnn ich fragte die Lcutc, die ich filmte, nicht urn Erlaubnis; aber die ganzc
Situation ist ja eigcntlich cin oficntliches Angcbot, also gibt cs cine gcncrcllc Erl<tubnis zu Ill­
men. Abcr ich ging in dicscn Arbcitcn dcnnoch cincn Schritt wciter; ich kam den Protagonistcn
schr nahc unci sic konntcn gar nidus sagcn, wei! sic ja mit ihrcr Darbicwng bcschiifligt waren.
Bcim Film en von WEDDING gab cs tvfomcntc, in dcncn ich cinzclncn Gruppcn zu nahc kam,
vor allcm als sic das Geld zahlten. Bcinahc cine Swndc lang h<tttc ich den Tisch, an dcm sic
zllhltcn, grfilmt, zicmlich nahr, unci sic bcganncn sich zu fi·agcn, wcshalb ich clort war und
immcr clas Gdcl filmtc. AIs ich mcrktc, class dns nicht gut ankarn, hurtc ich auf zu filmrn unci
ging. lch hl\llc noch wcitcrmachcn ki.inncn, clcnn sic bcganncn gcradc damit, Gold 7.ll zahlcn,
abcr cs war in Ordnung, class ich ging. Es battc intcrcssant scin konncn, doch ich habc so
ctwas wic cine Moral unci Ethik. lch dcnkc, class ich die Mcnschcn .in mcincn Arbcitcn wic
mcinc Frcundc bchandlc. \Venn ich nicht mit ihncn kommunizicrc, dann kann ich sic auch
nicht gut filmen. Um cine Vcrtraucnsbasis zu scharrcn, vcrbringc ich Zeit mit ihncn. Bci dcr
schiitischcn Gcmcinschaft aus Aslmro ging ich bcispiclswcisc 2009 zum crstcn Mal an ihrc
Aschura-Zcrcmonic unci filmic ohnc jcmandcn w kcnnen; cs war cin Test. Danach ricf ich sic
an und wir trafcn uns in ihrcm Quarticr Zcyncbiyc zu Tee unci l'viinagcssen. Ich war cnorm
von dcm Ricscnspcktakcl beeinclruckt, das sic auf die Beine stellten, aber die Vidcoau!ilah­
mcn davon warcn chcr schlccht. Sic produzicrcn jcdcsjahr cine DVD von ihrer Au!Ttthnmg
unci schickcn sic an schiitischc Bekannte im ganzcn Land. lch sagtc ihncn, class ich im niich­
stcnjahr mit mchreren Kamcras zurlickkommen wcrde unci sic clas Material nutzen konntcn,
urn cine besscrc DVD ihrcr Auffuhrung
zu
machcn. Zurlick in Berlin ricf ich sic hiiufig an
unci wir diskuticrtcn, wic man das Thcatcrst(ick !Jesser filmcn ki.inntc. \Vir beschlosscn, class
ich an die Proben kommcn mlisstc. lm kommcndcnJahr war ich bcrcits cincn Monat vor dcm
cigcntlichcn Fcsttag im Quarrier. Wiilm:nd der crstcn Wochc hattc ich gar kcinc Viclcokamc­
ra dabci, ich sail nur in dcr lV[oschcc unci schautc mir die Proben an. Wir bcganncn uns
zu
untcrhaltcn und ich crkliirtc ihncn, was ich machcn wolltc. Als ich den Zcitpunkt fiir gccignct
hiclt, fragtc ich sic um Erlaubnis und bcgann zu filmcn. Es gab jccloch noch immcr Leutc
inncrhalb der Gcmcinschaf"t, bci clcncn ich mich unwohl fuhltc, wcnn ich sic filmte, also liefl
ich es scin; zum Beispiel die Frauen, wclchc die Engel spidtcn. Also beziiglich dcincr Frage
nach Erlaubnis, so muss sic gcgenscitig scin: sic wird mir nicht cinfach gcgcbcn, sondcrn ich
tuc mcin llcstcs, tun sic zu bckommen. Abcr nidtt in cincm bUrokratischcn Sinnc wie: ,lch
habc ein Stiick Papicr mit Untcrschrift, jctzt kann ich tun was ich will!"
i.W. : Ich bin nicht so schr intercssicrt an, sagen wir, Fragcn dcr LcgaliUit und auch nicht
unbedingt hinsichtlich eincr Ethik. l'v[ich intcressicrt mchr, inwicfcrn du das Gefiihl hast, llir
clicsc Lcutc zu sprechcn. Gibt cs da Auswirkungen hinsichtlich dcr Art unci Weise, wic das
Kunstwcrk rczipicrt wircl? Also wcr mit dcm Kunstwcrk spricht unci an wen cs adrcssicrt ist?
K.E.: Dns frage ich mich auch immcr wicde1·. An wen das Kunstwcrk adrcssicrt ist, kann man
nic wirklich wisscn, cs k;�nn in vcrschicdcncn Kontcxtcn gczcigt wcrdcn. Das Publikum ist
wie cine Art Wolke, die man nicht gcnaucr bczeichncn kann. Man kann die gcnauc Form unci
Farbc dicscr Wolke nicht schcn, man wciB nicht, woher sic kommt und wohin sic gcht. Ich
dcnke, man muss sich auf viclc vcrschicdcnc Situationcn cinstcllcn und auf Bctraehter, die
rund um die Welt die Arbcit mit schr vcrschicdcncn gcistigcn Vorcinstellungcn bctrachten.
Ich bin !lir deren vcrschicdcne Zugangswciscn zicmlich ofTen. Was die Frngc angcht, ob ich
flir jcmandcn sprcche, so dcnkc .ich nicht, class ich das kann. Ich kann nur flir mich sclbst
sprcchcn. Aile Dingc, die ich bishcr gcmacht babe, sogar das Durchklimmcn der Archive von
B'Trdtm, hattcn ctwas mit mir zu tun. Ich mochtc nicht, class mcinc Arbcit zu cincr person­
lichen Thcrapie vcrkommt, aber ich bin dcnnoch immer im Zcntrum - wic auf den Grup­
pcnfotos. Ich muss von den Lcutcn bcschiitzt wcrdcn. Du kcnnst vicllcicht das Sprichwort:
,Wir kamcn allcin auf die Welt und allein werdcn wir stcrbcn." \Venn ich mich allcinc unci
dcprimicn flihlc, wird mir das oil gcsagt. Abcr ich mag cs in cincr Gruppc von !vlcnschcn
zu scin, ich gcnidlc cs wirklich unci w(inschtc mir, cine groflc cigcnc Familic
zu
habcn. lch
§g
hatte mcinc Mutter, mcincn Vater unci mcincn Bruder; cs gab nic vide Vcrwandte. Wir warcn cine hart arbcitcndc Familic unci wir warcn crfolgrcichc Kindct; die in cine gutc Schulc
gingcn. vVir batten inuncr mchr Arbcit als frcizcit, was nicht dcr Regel cntspraeh. Ich war
schr chrgeizig; ich bin cs noch, wenn auch ctwas \vcniger. Mcin Ehrgciz machtc mich gcgcn­
Obcr Frcizcitvcrgnligen blind. Frcizcitvcrgniigcn nicht cinfach im Sinn von Spall. Ich war
schr iibcrrascht, als ich cinmal hortc, class im Altgricchischcn ,Freizcit" und ,Aktivit;H" \'Om
sclben Wortstamm kommcn. Frlihcr bcdcutclc frcizcit und Arbcit fur die Studcntcn ofTen bar
dassclbc. Wcnn man sich das Gymnasium in dcr altcn gricchischcn Tradition anschaut, gibt
cs dorl vicl Frcizcitvcrgniigcn
-
in dcm Sinne, class die philosophischcn Dialogc Vcrgnugcn
bcreitctcn; sic allen wiihrend sic diskuticrtcn, sic batten Spall. Abcr ich wurdc nicht so et·zo­
gcn, ich haue Ziclc. lch konmc nic cinfach cnlspanncn. Hcutc wcill ich, class mir in mcincr
Frcizcit die gutcn Idcen kommen. Frii hcr war cs das Gcgcnteil, ich musstc arbeitcn, lllll Ein­
flillc zu habcn. Das war das cine.
Das andere ist die Situation in cincr Gruppe. lch war in cincr Gruppe, als ich mit Robert Wil­
son arbcitctc unci ich Iichte cs, cs war wundcn·oll. Abcr in unscrcr modcrncn Welt schcinen
die Lettie - auch wcnn sic nicht dazu gezwungcn werdcn - Iieber fUr sich allcin zu sein. Das .
sche unci crlcbc ich in mcincm eigcncn Leben. Abcr wcnn man sich mcinc Arbciten anschaut,
so sind all die Lcutc darin kcinc cinzclncn lndivicluen, sondcrn Bcstandtcilc von Situationcn,
in dencn Gruppcn wsammcnlebcn unci ihrc ldcntiliil durch Ritualc in dcr Gruppc dcfiniercn.
Das Interesse an den Gruppcn isl dttrchaus pcrstinlich molivicn. Ich sprcchc also flir mich
sclbst, ich war nic dcr l\'lcinung, class ich fiir die philippinischc Gcrncinschaft in Israel sprcchc.
Sic sind manchmal stolz darauf, class ich sic in mciner Arbcit zeigc, abcr ich kann nicht for sic
sprcchcn; ich bin kcin Filipino unci kcinc frau, so cinfach ist das.
I.W.: Wic verstchst du dann die \Vcchsclwirkung zwischen Inf(mnation und Interpretation
rcspckti\'c Empfindung in cincr Arbcit?
K.E.: Du mcinst, inwicfcrn ich das Publikum informicre unci wic cs mcinc Arbcit intcrprcticrt?
l . W. : Nun, es schcint mir, class bcidc Dingc in dcincr Arbcit schr priiscm sind; cs gibt l"nforma­
tioncn, die gcradczu belchrcncl sind, die clas l'ublikum mit cincm gcwisscrmaflcn cthnografi­
schcn Sachvcrhalt vcrsorgcn. Ich fragc mich, wic das mit dcm Pcrsonlichcn zusammcnspiclt.
K.E.: Das stimml. Abcr noch cinmal: Ich dcnkc nicht ans Publikum, wcnn ich schncidc. Ich
filmc allcs, was rncinc Augen schcn. Wcnn ich mich nach links drchc, so mtichtc ich, class sich
die Kamcra mitbcwcgt, ich mochtc nichts vcrpasscn. Dcshalb filmc ich manchmal ricsigc
Mcngen an Material. �Icine Projckte kommcn nicht mit groBcn Budgets zustandc, abcr mit
cincr grollcn Crew. Ich will vier Kamcras unci drci Fotografcn vor Ort habcn, ich will kcin
Detail vcrpasscn. W:ihrcncl des Schncidcns kommt mcinc pcrsonlichc Ncugicr ins Spiel. Unci
ich Iinde, ich habc das Recht \ibcr Dingc zu lachcn, die passicrtcn, als ich filmtc. Ich dcnkc
nicht, class ich dcshalb ctwas cthisch odcr moralisch Vcrwcrllichcs luc. Die komischcn Mo­
mcntc sind flir mich iibcrhaupt nicht cinfach ncg<Hiv, sondcrn machen die Arbcit rcalistischct:
lch intcgricrc cinigc sehr abstraktc Momcntc dcr Filmaufnahmcn unci die Art unci Weise, wic
ich sic zusammcnstcllc, lassen das Publikum lachcn. \Venn ich ztltll Beispiel JJinibining Promised
Lnnd in dcr Tiirkci odcr Israel zcigc, so linden sic das, wns im Film gczcigt wird, komisch unci
traurig zuglcich. Abcr sic fl·agcn nic: ,Machen wir uns nicht tibcr sic Iustig?" odcr: ,Zcigst du
sic nicht in cincr ncgativcn Att?" Dicsc Fragcn kamcn erst zwcimal in Deutschland, <:inmal
an c:: incr Kunstscbule unci cinmal bci cincm Kiinstlcrgcsprlich . Ich musstc vcrsichcrn, class ich
kcinc Absicht hl\ttc, mich tiber irgcncljcmandcn Iustig zu macbcn. Abcr ich mochtc die lustige
Scitc cbenfalls zcigen, denn cs war Iustig. lch fiihlc mich dcrart inncrhalb cincr Gcmcinscbaft,
class ich rnicb iibcr sic ebcnso Iustig machen kann, wic iibc1· micb sclbcr. NatUrlich ist cs cin­
facbcr, wcnn man dcm Publikum ctwas dirckt crkHiren kann; wcnn man in die J\usstcllung
kommt, kann cs gut scin, d<Jss m<�n dcnkt: ,Oh?! D11s ist abcr schon cin bisscbcn cin Gag."
Es kommt schr darauf an. ivfcinc Erfahrung lchrt mich, class cs darauf ankommt, woher das
Publikum stammt, auf clcsscn Zugangswcisc und wie cs Rcpriiscntation und Imerprctation
vcrstcht.
I.W.: Abcr du bist del:jenigc, dcr kontrollicrt, was dcr Bctrachtcr sicht.
K.E.: Findest du?
l.W.: Ja. Du wlihlst die Bildcr aus und die Reihcnfolge, in der sic dcr Bctrachter sieht. Dcr
Bctraehter wahlt nicht aus, was Tcil dcr Arbcit ist.
K.E.: Okay. Aber wic crklUrst du dir, class cinigc Leutc Ubcrhaupt nicht rcngicrcn und andere
schon!' Ieh konnte das nie herausfinclen.
I.\•V.: Das ist ctwas vollkommcn andercs! Abcr du bist dcljenigc, dcr for die Bestandtcilc
vcrantwortlich ist, wclchc die Arbeit ausmachcn. Glciehzeitig dcnkc ieh, class cs kcinc Vorhcr­
schbarkcit dcr Interpretation geben kann. lch mcinc clamit, class cs vollkommen sinnlos wiil·c
cine Arbeit zu machcn, wenn man gcnau vorschrcibcn konnte, wic sic zu vcrstchcn unci zu
intcrprcticrcn ist. Dann konntc man cs glcich einfach aufsehrcibcn. Abcr ich fragc mich, ob
das Verhliltnis zwischen dcr Information und dcm Personlichen in deincr Arbcit inclirckt mit
ctwas Politischcm zu tun hat.
ICE.: Kannst du das etwas praziscr lormuliercn?
I.W.: Also wcnn du kunsthistorisch denkst, zum Beispiel wic dcr individucllc Alltag, der Tcil
dcr Kunslpraxis wurdc, politisch vcrstandcn wurdc, indcm cr zum Beispiel das Spektakcl
oder
ein
patriarchates System,
das normalcrwcise das pcrsonliche Leben, Interpretation oder
Diflcrenz aussehlieBt, untcrrninicrtc. Also wcnn du aus cincr pcrsonlichen Siehl i.ibcr dcine
Arbcit sprichst, wie ist dann das Vcrhiiltnis zwischen dcincr pcrsonliehen Siehl unci der Rcali­
tlit der Dingc, die clu fihnst? Enthlillt oder crOffnel das Pcrsonlicbc ctwas Ubcr die so�ialc odcr
politisehe Struktur desscn, was du dokumenticrst?
K.E.: In gcwisscr Weise muss r.s das wohl, ja. Aber cs gibt so vide Ebcncn der Information,
vor allcm innerhalb dicscr Gruppcn von Lcuten, die ich filmc. lch dcnkc, cs ist nicht moglich
fUr mich, aile Aspekte zu zcigen. Also auf was fokussicrc ieh? \Venn ich so dartibcr naeh·
dcnkc, gibt cs dcfinitiv so ctwas wic cincn politisehcn, odcr viellcicht bcsser soziologischen
Aspckt in den Arbcitcn. Als ersccs meinc Faszination und Ncugic1· bcziiglich Gruppcnclyna­
mik; zwcitens gibt cs auch cine Kritik an dcm, was ieh mache, besonders bei den liirkischen
Hochzeitcn. M.an kann mich bcispiclswcise nach mcincm pcrsonlichcn Problem li·agcn , wcs­
halb ieh die Sequcnzcn mit dem Gcldzlihlcn so prominent machtc. Mich stone die Arc und
Weise cnorm, wic sic das Geld in Emplang nahmcn. Anders als im Film gab cs in Rcalitiit
0
0>
kcinc Musik im Hintcrgrund, cs war vollkommen ruhig. Damals rcalisicrte ich nicht, class cs
c:n
sich cigcntlich um cin schr positives System des gcgcnscitigcn Gcschcnkcaustauschs handel!;
das habc ich erst im Zugc meiner Rechcrchcn flir mcinc Doktorarbcit entdcckt. Das ist dcr
Punkt: Im Video werdcn die Ausschnittc zu cincr dcutlichcn Kritik am - vicllcicht nicht clem
Patriarchal, abcr am Machismus. Das kannte ich aus Istanbul; dort gab cs dicsc \'crlogcnc,
vulgHrc und grobc Machokultur. Das hat mich schr lange bcschnftigt unci cs hat nichts damit
zu tun, class ich schwul bin. Unci dann war ich bier in Deutschland, wcg von dcr Tiirkei, unci
bier war sogar noch mchr davon. .Es gcht nicht urn Geld,
t'S
geht urn M.acht. Es ist die Art, wic
die Mlinncr gcklcidct s.ind; cs ist, wie sic das Geld in den lhndcn haltcn; cs ist ihrc Ernsthal:
tigkcit. In dicscm Tcil dcr Arbcit unci in dicscm Tcil des Rituals gibt es keincrlci Humor; die
J\iiinncr sind wirklich vollkommcn ernst unci vcrsuchcn allcs korrckt zu noticrcn. lch mochtc
sic nicht, sic crinncrtcn mich an den Soldatcn, dcr in /, Soldier das Gcclicht licst. Ich war
auf ihn wiitcncl, unci cbcnso wlitcnd war ich auf die Gclclz�ihlcrci. War ich in Binibining auf
irgcndctwas wlitcnd? Ncin! Oh, cigcntlich doch, auf das ist·aclischc Regime unci die Richter.
Also g<�b cs wahl doch cinen sozialkritischcn Zugang.
1.\V.: Ich findc, cs gibt dicscn auch in dcincn schr friihcn Arbcitcn, in dcr Art wic du die
Kamcra benutzt. Man sicln zum Beispiel, class die Kamcra, wclchc die Lcutc lihnt, von cincr
Person gchaltcn win!. Und anstatt cin Bild zu krcicrcn, welches clas Pathos des Spcktakcls
bcstiitigt odcr gar monumcntalisicrt, untcrminicrt csjcdc Monumcntalittit. Dcin Bild bcinhal­
tct unsaubcrc Bildrahmcn, so wic cs bci cincr Fcrnschkamcra nicmals gcschchcn w(irdc. Du
konstruierst cin llild, das anti-spcktakuliir ist; unci auf cine Art ist cs <tnti-patrinrchalisch, dcnn
cs zcigt die Briichc unci cine gcwissc Mcnschlichkcit clcr Vcranstahung, die du clokumcnticrst.
Das hat fiir mich cinen politischcn Gchalt. Dicsdbc Ironic gibt cs in den Gclclzahlszcncn in
WEDDING oclcr bci dcr Prcisrichtcrs7.cnc in Binibining.
I<:. E.: Wns sichst du kritisch in 11inibining?
I.W.: Gcwiss clic Szcnc mit den Richtcrn. Dcr Film schcint an dicscr Stelle gcgcniibcr clct·cn
Position cxtrcm kritisch zu scin; clic Art unci \Vcisc, wic die Blickc clcr Richter cingcfangcn
sind; wic sic dicsc Mndchcn unci sich seiher anschaucn. Darin licgt cin gcwisscs MaB m1 Me­
lancholic, cine Traurigkcit unci cine Art Ho!Tnungslosigkcit, clic clamit zu tun hat, class die
LctllC unci Tcilnchmcrinncn sich vorstellcn, Miss \Vorlcl zu wcrdcn und wir doch wissen, class
cs kcincswcgs um Miss World gcht, sondcrn um cine Vc ranstaltung im Bustcnninal, wo aile
durchcinandcr rcdcn unci zuglcich dicsc stupidc l'mjcktion von Fashion TV im Hintcrgrund
liiurt. Die Darbictungcn sind unglaublich unci absolut lachcrlich. De inc Arbcit ist kcinc '"'cr­
bung fiir die Vcranstaltung, cs ist wei taus kmnplcxcr. Gcnau wic dcr Gcbrauch dcr Kamcra
clas Spcktakcl in /, Soldier unci The F
lag dcmaskicrt. Dies hat durchaus cine politischc Dimen­
sion. In IVEDD/.NG ist die Gcldziihlszcnc wohl die pointicrtestc, zusammcn mitjcncr dcr cx­
trcmcn Kiinstlichkcit, wcnn die Frauen zurcchtgcmacht wcrclcn. Obcr Aslmra kann man noch
nicht vic! sagcn, cs cntstcht ja gcraclc erst. Abcr wic du sagst, man kann niche cine cinzigc lle­
hauptung Hlr aile Arbcitcn aufstellcn. Die 1\rbcitcn vcr:indcrn sich libct· clic Zeit unci ebcnso
dcin Verstlindnis davon; unci das ist wichtig. Abcr ich dcnkc, cs hat kritischcs Potential inncr­
halb dcr Arbcitcn; sic dokumenticrcn hiiufig ctwas, gcgcn das sic cigcntlich Position bczichcn.
K.E.: Ja, sichct·, cs hat cin kritischcs PotentiaL In Binibining richtct cs sich jcdoch nicht gcgcn
die philippinische Gcmcinschaft, sondcrn gcgen die Siwation, in dcr sic sich bcfJnclcn. Die
Richter sind Israeli; naturlich wilhlcn die Filipinos die Richtct; abcr sind sic in ihrer Wahl
wirklich frei'? Sic durfcn nur fiir vier Jahre im Land blcibcn, habcn cingcschrllnkte Rcchtc,
cigentlich bcinahc kcine Rcchtc. Fi.ir sic ist cs zicmlich klar, israelischc Richter w bestimmeu,
denn sic wollcn sich gut mit ihncn stcllcn, sic sind untcr ihrcr Kontwllc. Das kritisicrc ich; cs
ist cine Arbcit, in clcr ich Israel kritisicrc.
lch dcnkc, die Entscheidung, hartnackig die Handkamcra
w
bcnutzcn, geht auf meinc
Schauspiclausbildung zuruck. Auch mit Robert Wilson war cs so, class allcs perfckt scin mus­
stc: ,Halle den Atcm an unci fang <111." So bcgann cs immcr. Man wolltc, class das Publikum
den Atcm anhiclt; man wolltc, d<tss d<ts Publikum die \
l "Iobiltclclonc abschaltct, man wollte
dies und clas. Als ich dcm als Schauspiclcr ausgesctzt war, hasstc ich das. Auch, wei! ieh cine
Illusion crschancn musstc; vicllcicht ist 11\usion das falsche Wort. Das Theater arbcitct vicl
mchr mit Illusion als mcinc Videos. Mit Hsthctischer Illusion hattc ich immcr cin Problem.
Ich babe meinc cigcnc Astbctik, abcr icb bin cin zicmlich sarkastischcr Mensch. Sogat· in
mcinem Alltag, wcnn ich cine Person sehr mag, kann ich mich tiber sic Iustig machcn. Das
ist abcr auch schr intim; um sich tiber jcmandcn Iustig
vcrbundcn scin.
w
machen, muss man ihm sehr
Lass mich crzahlen, w.ic ieh film e. Ich habc cine eigcnc Tccbnik, urn die Kamen\ stillzubaltcn.
Es ist cine Handkamcra unci viclc Profis mogcn cs nicht, wenn man sic kippt; ich babe cine
Tcchnik hcrausgcfundcn, wic man dabci stchcn muss, unci manchmal trainicrc ich mcincn
Arm vor cincr Auli1ahmc. Ich versuche am Abend vor dcr Aufnahmc nicht zu trinkcn odcr
auszugchcn. lch bin schr disziplinicrl, dcnn ich muss mcincn Arm fur lange Zeit stillhaltcn
kOnncn. Ich pcndlc zwischen Handkamcra unci dcm Stativ. Doch wenn ich das Stativ benutzc,
fu hlc ich mich wic tot, dcnn wic gcsagt, ich rniichtc allcs aufnchmcn, wic cs passicrt und nicht,
wic ich cs mir vorstcllc. Das Stativ zwilngt das Gcschchcn in eincn bcstimmtcn Bildausschnitt,
was f"lir meine Projcktc dcnkbar ungccif,TI\Ct ist. Die Lcutc bewcgen sich schr schncll. Abcr
sogar in TAN/CLOVE, das chcr vorbcrcitct unci wcnigcr dokumcntarisch war, cntschicd ich
mich filr die Handkamcra; was von viclcn Lcll(cn kritisicrl wurdc. Es gibt zum Beispiel cine
lange perspcktivischc Aufnahmc vom Panzer, wic cr die Strafic hcruntcrflihrt. Sic war als schr
st<ttische Einstcllung vorgeschcn, abcr ich vcrwcndetc kcin Stativ. lch denkc, die Karncra so in
meiner Hand zu lwltcn, cntclcckte ich zum crstcn ?vlal an dcr Schauspiclschulc, ;�Is ich in ei­
ncm St(ick nicht mitspiclcn durftc, w<:il ich zujung war. Sic probtcn cin Stiick ,·on Tsehcchow
unci gabcn mir cine Kamcra
tun
zu filmen. Das w<Jr cin \Vendepunkt, dcnn ich mochtc nicht
so sehr das, was auf dcr Bi.ihnc war, sonclern clas, was ich in dcr Kamcra sah.
I.W. : Das ist schr intcrcssant, dcnn cs hat ctwas dami t zu tun, was ich in dcincm Blog gckscn
babe. Du sprichst clarin iibcr deinc Erfahrungcn an dcr Schauspielschulc und wic du nicllls
�.wischcn Euripides unci 13cckctt gefundcn hast, womit du dich korpcrlich wohl gcfilhlt hiittest.
Unci was du jctzt bcschrcibst, ist, class du cine Hanclhabung dct· Kamcra fanciest, die mit clir
vcrbundcn war unci mit dcr du dich wahl fuhltesr. Nun, was impliziert dies? Indcm du die Ka­
mcra htiltst, bcsctzt du auch cine Rolle in dcm, was gcschicht; du bist zuglcich Schauspidcr
unci Tcilnehmcr. Dicscs Vcrstandnis von Sclmuspicl ist in dcincr Arbcit noch immcr zcntral,
cs wurclc nie au(!l"cgcbcn; die Kamcra ist bis hcutc mit clcincm Ktirpcr vcrbundcn.
K.E.: Ncin, das hat sich wirklich nicht vcriindcrt. lch sage zwar immcr, class ich das Theater
hassc, abcr zuglcich Iiebe ich cs auch, wei! cs vcrschicdcne Formcn gibt. D<ts me inc ich, wcnn
ich sage, cs glibc 7.\\�schcn Euripides und Becken niclns lntcrcssantcs. lch sehc das vor allcm
in Bczug auf die Sprachc, wei! sic bciclc wusstcn, wic mnn sic im The<ltcr vcrwcndct. Und
�
wcnn ich vom Kiirpcr sprcchc, dann ist cs cine gcographische Vcrbindung, dcnn cia� gricchischc 1�hcalcr ko1ntnt von1 sclbcn Orl wic ich. �vlnn crkenru das don noch imn1cr, ln den
Dorfcrn, in cler Folklore. Unci warum Beckett? Wei! cr wusstc, wic man spricht, unci wei! cr
zcitgcnussisch ist - wir habcn dicsc Art von Bcckctt-Sprachc im allt:igliehcn Leben. Auch ist
'
unscrc clcprimicrendc Wclt bci Beckett schr gut beschricbcn. Um auf den Gcbrauch meiner
Kamcra zurlickzukommcn: Es stimmt, als ich die Aufnahmcn von der Aufll.i hrung an dcr
Schule machtc, flihlte ich mich wie im Theater, abcr ich war hinrcr dcr Kamcra unci die
Kamcra war Tcil mcines Korpers.
Beim Umgang mit dcm Material von B'Ts&m rcalisicrte ich noch ctwas. Zuvor war ich
bcscsscn davon, tiber mcinc Kamcra die Kontrollc zu habcn, ich konntc mir nic vorstellen,
sic jcmand andercm zu (ibcrbsscn. Auch wcnn ich cincn zweitcn Kamcramann hattc, so
vcrwcndetc ich kaum jc vic! von scincm Material. AIs ich die Videos von B'Tselem anschaute,
wurdc mir klar, class cs manclunal nicht wirklich wichtig wat; wcr filmtc odcr wic gefilmt
wurdc. lch fuhltc mich wohl mit dcm Found Footage. Das mcistc Material von JJ'7sdcm war
auch so gdilmt, wic ich cs machen wUt·dc. Als ich bcim Kamcratraining von B'Tsclcm mit­
machte - man sagtc ihncn, class sic die Beine sprcizcn solltcn und mit dcr cinen Hand die
andere, in dcr sic die Kamcra haltcn, stlitzcn; so wic ich es auch machc. Und eben falls glcich
wic ich cs ctwa hci WEDDLNG odcr Aslwm machtc, so filmcn auch sic cinfach, was sic schcn,
ohnc groBc Vorbcrcitung odcr Plan. lch fragc mich, ob die Art unci Weise, wie man ctwas
filmt, das man fcsthahcn mochtc, allgemcin ist. kh fragc mich, ob cs cine allgemeine \Vcisc
gibt, solchc Szcncn zu filmcn.
I.W.: Ich wlirdc c!as mit mchr als lccliglich tcchnischcn Aspcktcn vcrbindcn. Ich dcnkc, du
bcschrcibst die Kamcra bcinahe als ein 1vl.ittcl, mit clcm du in cincr Situation zuglcich cin­
und ausgcschlosscn bist. Viellcicht ist clas die Ahnlichkcit zu den Lcutcn, die im Rahmen von
B'Tsrlrm filmcn: Mit clcr Kamcra sind sic wglcich angczogcn wic abgcschrcckt von cincr Si­
tuation, in der sic sich bcfinclcn; cincr Situation, die aufgezcichnct wire!, um lctztendlich ctwas
zu vcrandcrn. Unci dies ist meincr i\(cinung nach die Vcrbindung zu dem, was du allgcmcin
Ubcr deinc Bczichung wr Gruppc gcsagt hast. Du bist zugleich angczugcn unci abgestoBen von
cincr Gruppc; unci clu bist cincrscits cingcladcn, anclcrcrscits auch ansgcschlosscn.
K.E.: 1\kinst du ,abgcsto!Jcn" in cincm ncgativcn Sinn?
I.W:: Ncin, cs ist nicht in cincm abwcrtcndcn Sinn gcmein. Die Gruppe crwartet von dir abcr
oft, dass clu etwas von dir aufgibst, 11111 Tcil von ihr zu werdcn.
K.E.: Unci du denkst, mit clcr Kamcra widcrstt'l1c ich dcm?
I.W.: Nun, die Situation, in clcr du dich bcfindcst, wire! zu eincr Vermittlung zwischen Attrak­
tion unci Repulsion rcspcktivc l n klusion und Exklusion. \Ven n clu zum Beispiel cine Kamcra
auf dcr Biihnc hiiltst unci cine Aul1lihrung filmst, in clcr clu glcichzcitig mitspiclst, schlicBt du
clich glcichzcitig aus, inclcm du die Kamera hiiltst. Es ist zuglcich Partizipation unci Exklusion.
Die Kamcra in dcincr Hand ist clcin Zugang unci glcichzcitig das Zeichen dcincr Abgrcnzung.
ICE.: Das stimmt. So war cs auch in WE
DDLNC. In meincr Kindhcit wiiren wir nicmals an
solch ,volkstiimlichc" Hochzciten, wic wir
cs
damals nanntcn, gcgangcn. \Vann immct· ich
zum Halay - dcm Tanz im Kreis - aufgefordcrt wurdc, fliichtctc ich. Als ich WEDDING
filmtc, war ich im !inlay, hiclt nbcr noch immcr mcine Kamcrn in dcr Hand. Es wl\rc mir nic
in den Sinn gckommcn zu sagcn: ,Jctzt hurc ich auf zu filmcn, ich fcil�rc mit cuch den Rest
des Abcncls." Dassclbc bci Aslmm. Als sic sich cines Abcnds auf die Brust schlugcn ·- was Tcil
ihrcs Riwals ist- li·agtcn sic mich, ob ich mitmachcn wolltc, doch ich sagtc: ,Ncin, ich bin am
Filmen." Dart war cs schwierigcr, wcil die Grnppc ilbcrsichtlichcr war und schr vcrschicden
von dcm, was ich karmic. Hnlay wnr nls solchcs ja nicht neu fur mich.
Eigentlich mochtc ich vollstiindig mit dabci scin, das win! dcr nlichstc Schritt scin. Ebcnf."llls
cin nlichstcr Schritt ist - in cincr schr cntspanntcn An - Dokumcntation und Reprliscntation
als solchcs in Ft·agc zu stcllcn. Es gibt Lcutc, die machcn ungcrn Fotos von ihren Fcrien; ich
schon, wcnn auch immcr wcnigcr. Ich fragc mich, ob ich an cincn Punkt kommc, wo ich mit
der Dokumentation andercr Gcmcinschaftcn au{horc, wei! ich wcnigcr Lust zu rciscn und
fi·cmdc Dinge zu schcn babe; odcr sclbst wcnn ieh dorthin gche, nieht mehr zu filmcn. Ich
wtirdc cs dir gcgcnubcr viellcicht crwiihnen, abcr nicht mchr zcigcn. Das ist abcr wcnigcr cine
kunstlcrische Frage.
1.\V.: D u mcinst Bil.clcr· zu machcn?
K.E.: Gcnau.
I.W.: Wanun sichst du cine dcrartigc Hierarchic zwischen cincr Erzahlung mit Woncn und
cincr mil Bildcrn? Es gcht noch immcr urn Rcprascntation, auch wcnn du cs crziihlst.
K.E.: Fur mich haben Hilder mchr mit kiinstlcrischcr Darstcllung zu tuu.
J.\.Y:: Abcr cin Kunstwcrk kann aus gcsprochcncn Woncn bcstchcn.
K.E.: Dns stimmt, abcr ich habc cs noch nic gemacht. Ich bin vcrtraut mit Fotografic und
Video, mein Gchim arbcitct noch immcr in dcr Weise, class ich denkc, gewissc Dingc mlissten
geschniltcn und cincm l'ublikum prliscntiert wcrden. Jcmandem ctwas zu crzahlcn ist ll.ir
mich chcr cin Akt dcr Frcundschaft. Das wird sichcrlich wcitcrgchcn, ;�bcr das andere konntc
vcrschwindcn odcr sich vcriindcrn. Eigcntlich vcranclcrt es sich bcrcits jctzt.
I.W.: Hast du den Eindruck, class das v
l fachcn dcr Arbcit cine An Vcrbindung unci Tcilhabc
mit den Lcutcn ist, die du in den Fihncn zeigst? Sind sic flir clieh so etwas wic ausgclagcrtc
ldcntitiitcn auf" Zeit, mit dcncn du dich vcrbundcn [(ihlst?
K.E.: Aur jcdcn Fall.
1. 'rV.: Eincrseits spricht in dcr Arbeil cleine cigenc Stimme, andercrscits aber auch jcne dcr
dargcstclhcn Jndividucn. Ich dcnke dabei bcsondcrs an Binibining und wie die Zwischcntitcl
dorl funktionicrcn. Dcr Text statuicrt ctwas, das cincrscits cine zicmlich scharfc ironischc
Spitzc hat, andcrerscits ist es dirckt dcr Vcranstaltung entnommcn; du prlisenticrst Material,
welches zur \'Verbung verwcndct wurdc oder das an dcr Vcranstahung zirkulicrtc.
K.E.: Dcfinitiv, ich bin schr an 'Icilhabc intcrcssicrl; dabci gcht es nicht immcr tun cine wirk­
lichc Zusammenarbeit, sondcrn um Kocxistcnz. Ich umarmc die Lcutc, odcr ich kl;�mmcre
mich an sic bci Gcfahr, sic sind wic cine Rcttungswcstc, mcinc Lcbcnsrellcr. Kcin 'vVundcr,
�
klammcnc ich mich an die philippinische Gemeinschaft als ich in lsi·acl war, an cincm so
schwicrigen Ort. \Vcshalb n1achtc ich dicscs Projckt und nicht ct\vas anclcrcs libcr Israel? Und
warum bin ich in cler Turkci ausgcrechnct an der schiitischen Mindcrhcit intcrcssicn? Wannn
suchc ich solche Gcmcinschaftcn und nicht solchc, die mit dcncn ich mchr Gcmeinsamkciten
habc?
Aile Gcmcinschaftcn, an dcncn ich intcrcssicn bin, schcincn solchc zu scin, die mir in mcincr
.Kindhcit als unkultivicrt, unmodcrn unci primitiv bcschricbcn wurdcn. Das alles ist also auch
mcinc pcrsonlichc Idcntitlltskrisc.
I.W.: Du mcinst, class dcinc Intcrcsscn auch tcilwcisc bcschrcibcn, wic du dich sclbst sichst?
K.E.: lch dcnke ja, dcnn .ich bin mit dcr KultUI; in dcr ich lcbc, noch immcr nicht ganz
zufricdcn. Ich lcbc in Berlin, das gar nicht so andcrs als Istanbul ist; Istanbul ist jctzt auch
wcstlich. Jc mchr ich ins ostlichc Mittclmccr rcisc, dcsto mehr crkcnnc ich die Gruppcn unci
Gcmcinschaften dort als wenigcr individualistiseh. Ich bin bcispiclswcisc bescssen von dem,
was in Kairo
am
Tahir-Platz geschchcn isl oder von dcm, was in Syrien oder Paltistina vor­
gcht. Die israclischc Gcmcinschaft ist f
iir mich iibcrhaupt nicht intcrcssant, nicht cinmal dcr
Kibbuz, wcil das allcs sclu· iihnlich zu dcm ist, womit ich aulgewachsen bin. Es ist noch immcr
schr \vCstlich, individualistisch und ambitios. Ich schaue chcr nach ctwas andcrcm, ich hciBc
es willkommcn.
Gcncrcll mochtc ich mich von meincm cigcncn Leben und von mcincr Umgebung abkoppcln
und schauen, ob cs andere Moglichkcitcn gibt. Dank meiner Projekte kann ich vic) rciscn
und dabci Ierne ich jcdcs Mal neue Dingc. I�h dcnkc, ich bcnutzc die Kunst, um � in bcssercr
Mensch zu wcrdcn.
Parallel dazu hat sich dcr Umfang unci die Art dcr Darstcllung in mcincr Arbeit crwcitcrt,
woriibcr ieh sehr froh bin. In Binibiniug zum Beispiel ging ich nach dcr Dokumcntation des
Schunheitswcttbewcrbs zuriick unci machtc Gespriichc mit den drci Protagonistcn. Dicsc unci
die Magazine dcr Gemcinschaft bilden in der Ausstcllung in Winterthur cincn wichtigcn Bc­
standtcil.
I.\•V.: Also gibt es zusi\tzlich cinen chcr diskursivcn Kontcxl?
K.E.: In dcr Kunstlwlle Winterthur habc ich mcincn eigcnen Raum und ieh kann mit mcincn
Angstcn cxpcrimcnticrcn. Vicllcicht warcn cs mcinc Angstc, die bishcr cine cntspannte Art
clci· Darstellung vcrhindcrtcn. Vor clreiJahren hlittc ich nicmals gcwagt Aslwm zu zeigen, wei)
ich Panik gchabt hl\ttc, class die Arbcit noch nicht fcrtig ist. Indcm ich Aslwra unfcrtig zeige,
cxpcrimcnticre ich mil dcm Prozcss. Ich zcigc sic, wcil ich dcr Mcinung bin, class sic cine
gcwissc Erfahnmg ausrcichcnd darstcllcn kann.
I.W:: Es gibt hicr cine Vcrbindung zu etwas, iibcr das ich vicl nachgcdacht habe. Wcnn ich
dcinc Arbcit anschaue, oder aueh was du mir jetzt beschrcibst, clicsc Idee cincr provisori­
schcn Situation, wic die, wcnn ctwas cincm andcrcn crziihlt wird, ist cigcmlich gcnau das
Gcgcnteil von thcatralischcr Darstcllung. Bcgreift man cine Thcatcrszcnc als dcfinicrt durch
cin klassischcs Auditorium, dann hort man von Lcutcn, die so gearbcitet habcn, dllss man
z.u garantiercn vcrsucht, jcdcn Abend zu gcnau dcrsclbcn Zeit gcnau dasselbe gcschchcn zu
lassen. Es ist kcinc provisorische Situation, cs ist absolut fixicrt, auf die glciche Art, wie ctwas
in cincm Video fixierl ist; man sicht dieselben Bildcr in dersclbcn Abfolge in dcrsclben Zeit.
Normalcrwcisc gibt cs niclll vicl l'rovisorischcs in cincr cinf<�chcn Vidcopriisentation. Abcr
was du nun iibcr llslmm s<�gst unci w<�s vicllcicht auch das Zusammcnspicl der Arbciten in dcr
Ausstcllung umereinandcr bctriiTt, ctwa im Hinblick <�uf akustischc lntcrfcrem.cn von cincm
Raum zum niichstcn, das ziclt in Richtung cincr provisorischcn Situation, in dcr die pcrsfmli­
dle Erfahnmg einer Person an eincm bcstimmtcn 1:'lg ausgcsprochen an<krs scin kunntc
\'011
der Erfahrung einer andcren Person, die drei Tagc sptiler kommt; wcgcn der Zullilligkcit des
Zusammcnspicls un.d dcr lntcrfcrcnzen. Dagcgcn sind cinzclne Arbeiten wic Wl!.IJDlNG ja
huchst thcatralisch. Die Schnittstruktur ist schr thcatralisch und choreograficn - was cine dcr
groHcn Snirkcn der Arbeit ist, ihr Rhythmus und die Choreographic.
Es gibt cincn andercn Punkt, dcr ldccn von Theater, Film und Video mit der Untcrsrhcidung
von Individuum unci Gruppe verkniipft, unci zwar die Frage nach dcr Autorcnschaft. Wenn
du tiber TANKLOVE sprichst, wic die Zusammcnarbcit cigcntlich das l'rojekt ausmacht, dann
beschrcibst du die Lcutc als cine Art Kollaborateurc. lch fragc mich, wie die Nachwirkungcn
aus solchen Erfahrungcn sind. Also, wic clu auf die Lcute aus den \·orangegangcnen unci den
daraur folgcndcn Videos zuriickschaust. Wic verhiih sich clas zur Autorcnschaft?
K.E.: Hmm ... ich schc sic als Frcunclc unci Kollaboratcurc. Sic zcigcn sich mir unci auBcrdem
crlauben sic mir mit dcr Arbcit zu tun, was immcr ich will. Als ieh neulich nach den llildreeh­
tcn flir cin .Bild von TANKLOVE gcfragt wurdc, schricb ich ,Courtesy of the artist and the
people of Jyderup". Es kam ganz natiirlich, dcnn so schc ich es. lch muchtc, class sic in dcr
Arbcit pr�iscnt sind. Es isl dicsclbe Idee in Binibiniug mit den lntctvicws unci den r.,Iagazincn;
das betont schr dcutlich, class wir koii<Jborieren. Die Gcschichtc dcr tvbgazinc gcht bis ins
Jahr 2005 zuriick, unci dank dn Titclbilder kann das Publikum crfahren, welches die wich­
tigen lnhaltc unci Themen cler Gcmcinschaft tiber die .Jahre hinwcg warcn. Die Absicht, die
GmppcnbiklcJ· von ilslmm unci TANKLOVE sehr prominent zu inszeniercn, kam auch ganz von
alleinc. Es gcht auch
um
diese Lcutc, um mich inmitten dicsct· Leutc. Wiihrcnd icb WEDDING
filmtc, hatte ich di.csc Idee niclu, aber icb vcrsuchc jctzt cinige Lcute aus dern Film
w
findcn
unci ibn en cine Kopic zu schickcn. Odcr meintest du die Fragc cbcr im Sinn von Eigcntum?
I.W.: Ncin, ich bin imcrcssicrt an politischcn Aspektcn von Autorenschaft. Es geht mir darum,
ob die praktischcn Aspekte dcr Arbcit tcilwcisc mit der Idee von Autorcnschaft kollidicrcn,
nicht so schr um die Fragc nach Autorcnschaft in cincm ukonomischcn Sinn odcr im Hinblick
auf .Bcsitz.
K.E.: lch dcnkc niclll vic! dartibcr nacb. Das ist viellcidn dcr Grund, wcshalb mich viclc Lcute
danach fragcn! Nach den /3'Tsdem-Vorlesungen fi·agcn die Lcutc clas bcsondcrs oft. Ich habe
die Erlaubnis, die Videos zu zcigen, ich war an den mcisten Orten, die in den Videos vorkom­
mcn unci konmc die Lcute, die sic gcfilmt habcn, pcrsOnlich treffcn. Ich bctonc stcts, class es
sich um cine schr pcrsonliche Auswabl aus eincm ricsigcn Archiv handel!; allcs, was ich dcm
Publikum zeigcn will, ist, w<Js die Lcutc, die untcr isracliscbcr Bcsatzung Ieben, gefilmt habcn.
Aber es gab vicle Fragcn bc'l.iiglich dcr Autorenschaf't und ich antwortctc stcts, class icb itber­
haupt kcin Problem dam it habc, das Material zu zcigen. lch empfindc das nicht als unmora­
lisch. Abcr vor all em Leute, die mit Kunst zu tun habcn, profcssioncllc KUnstlcr bcispielswcise,
rittcn daraur hcrum. lch fand das spanncnd; mcine Antworten warcn wolll fiir cinigc schwcr
zu akzcptiercn, sic cmpfandcn sic als ungentigcnd. Ich fmde es cigentJich \'ullig normal.
Ich mochtc noch einm;-�1 auf die philippinische Gemeinschaft zur[ickkommen. lch arbcitctc
sehr lange an clicsem Film, cincinhalbjahrc, und zuerst machtc ich cine klcinc Broschiin:. lch
war g<mz aufgcrcgt, als sic fcrtig war unci schicktc sofort cin dickcs l'akct davon anJames, den
8
cigcntlichen l-lauptdarstcllcr in Biuibinin�t:· Es solltc gcnau au scincm Gcburtstag ankornmcu,
dcnn ich wusstc, class cr mit den anclcrcn i\hiclchcn vom '�'cttbcwcrb cine Party schmciflcn
wiirclc. Ich schricb ihm in cincn schr pcrsonlichcn Bcglcitbricf, class ich hofTtc, cr W[irclc die
Broschiirc mogcn. Etwas zu mogen odcr nicht, h�ingt schr von clcr Situation unci den Leu­
ten ab. Wir hintcrfi·agcn Asthetik unci Autorcnschal"t; clas machen sie zwar auch, aber ganz
andcrs. Zwci '1:-tgc spiitcr ricf ich james an und fi·agtc, ob cr mcin Geschcnk crhaltcn habc.
Alles, was cr sagte war: .,Oh, vielen Dank mcin Freund, es war ein schones Gcschcnk." Unci
clann lligtc cr hinzu: ,Abc1· weiflt du, cin paar dcr Miidchcn warcn ungllicklich." Zuerst
dachte ich, sic mochtcn die Publikation nicht, abcr sic warcn nur cnttiiuscht, class sic nicht
darin abgebildct warcn! lnfolgc dcr limiticrtcn Scitcnzahl konntc ich natUrlich nicht aile Por­
traits dcr l'diiclchcn abbilclen. Spiitcr schicktc ich ihncn die DVD, abcr kaum cine \'On ihncn
schautc sic sich an; sic warcn nicht daran intcrcssiert. Sic sind mchr daran intcrcssicrt, wcnn
ihr Portrait auf Faccbook gctaggcd wird. Als ich Binibining in Polen zcigtc, stand ich vor dcr
Installation und machtc unz�ihligc Fotos, so class ich jcdcs Miiclchcn in cincr Ausstcllungsan­
siclll auf Facebook mit ihrcm Namcn taggcn konntc. Das war wichtig flir sic, so ist ihr Zugang
zu
mcincr Arbcit. Schr vcrschicclcn von dcr Kunstszcnc!
l.vV.: Hat dies nicht auch mit cincm andcren Gcbrauchswcn zu tun?
Ihr
Gcbrauchswcn
bczicht sieh in kcincr Weise auf die Existcnz als Kunstwcrk, sondcrn auf cine Vcnnittlungs­
funktion.
K.E.: Ja, abcr ich mag eliesc Encrgic. Ich fragc mich, ob eliesc Encrgic in unscrcn Kunstdis­
kms hcrlibcrgcrcttct wcrdcn kann. Als ich IJ'T:iel�m zcigte, wurdc mir kl<n; wic schr sich das
l'ublikum mit Fl·agcn von Autorcnschaft bcschiiftigt, ich jcdoch nicht. Das wlirdc ich gcrnc
cinmal diskutieren: Warum sind manchc Lcutc so schr an Autorenschaft intcrcssiert und kon­
ncn nicht crkcnncn, class gcwissc Dingc anders gedacht wcrdcn mtisscn?
T.W.: Ein Gemaldc des abstraktcn Exprcssionismus zcigt die Rolle des Ktinstlcrs, des Autors,
des individucllcn Genies an, indcm die Lcinwand ,cinziganigc" Eigcnschaften dcr kOnstlc­
rischcn I-Iandschrift bcinhaltct, die von kcincm andcrcn Stammen konncn unci die wcrtgc­
sch:itzt we1·dcn, als wiircn sic Spurcn der Hand Gottes. Das hat mit der Idee von Mcistcrschaft
unci Genie zu tun, entgcgcn cincm Sicbdruck von \Varhol ctwa, wo die perstinlichc Hand­
schrift clurch cine rncehanischc Rcproduktion climinicrt wurdc und dcrart cin vtillig andcrcs
Vcrsli\ndnis von cincm Kunstlcr konstruicrt wird. Nidn, class vVarhol nun kcin Genic scin
ktlnntc - aus dcr Marktpcrspcktivc ist Warhol ja noch immcr dc1· Autor - abcr cs ist nicht
mchr so wic im abstraktcn Gcmlildc. Daran findc ich die vcrschicdcncn kulwn·llcn, okono­
mischcn unci politischcn l'l'!odcllc spanncnd, wclchc dicscn heiden Artcn Kunst zu machcn,
cntsprcchcn. Es gcht darum, ob man an die cigcnc Autorit.'\t als individucllcs Genic glaubt
odcr nicht.
K.E.: Daran glaubc ieh nicht. Natlirlich gibt cs cine ktinstlcrischc Lcistung, dcnn man invcs­
ticrtja cine gcwissc Arbcit, die auch honoricrt wcrdcn muss, nbcr ich schc mich nicht als Tcil
dicscs Gcnickonzcpts. lch bin chcr gror3ziigig in mcincm Konzept des Tcilcns mit andcrcn
Lcutcn. Die Idee des Genies kam kurz bci TA.Nfl'LOT'E auf, abcr ;�Is wir aile auf dem Panzer
posicrtcn, wa1· sic schncll wicdcr wcg. Unci scithcr bin ich zufricdcn damit.. Es ist imcrcssant,
class ich daucrnd nach Autorcnschaft gcfragt wcrdc und nicht, ob ich die Lcutc ausnut:r.c. Und
viellcicht ist der Grund, wcshalb ich darauf so cntspannt antwortcn kann, cinfach, dass ich
nicht wirklich daran intcrcssicrt bin.
l.W.: Wordcst du dcine Arbcil als ctwas bczcichncn, das mit dcm \Vunsch nach Flucht zu
tun hat?
K.E.: Flucht wovor·� lch wcif3 nieht. lch wcil3, dass ich cin Problem habc - nein, cs ist kcin
Problem, abcr ich habe ein llcdi.irfnis nach Flucht. Fluchl in viclerlci Hinsicht; cs kann Fluchl
vor gcwisscn Situationcn scin, Flucht vor dcr Unllihigkcit cine lleziehung zu fuhrcn odcr cine
neue zu beginnen. Aber woher <.Iieser Wunsch kommt, wcif3 ich nicht. Zum llcispicl tliichtctc
ieh vor dem Glaubcn; aber viclleicht bin ich zujung, um zu bcgreifcn, was cia wirklich vor sich
gcht. Die Frcundschaft mit dcr philippinischen Gcmcinschart in Israel ist nur vcrglcichbar mit
dem, was ich mit meincn bcstcn Freunclcn habc.
Die wirkliche N�ihc unci der Respckt, mit dem mir die schiitischc Gcmcinschaft w�ihrcnd den
Abcnden , an denen ich don war, begegnetc - sic behandeltcn mich wic cincn Professor- war
i.lbcrwiiltigend. Einmal war ich nach dcm Filmcn bei einem schr rcichen Freund am Bosporus
zu
eincr Dinncrparty eingcladen; cr ist Sammlcr und handclt mit Kunst. Am selben Abend
war ich mit mcincm Bruder verabrcdet unci so fragtc ich ihn, ob cr mich
7.U
dieser Party
bcgleitcn wolltc. Zucrsr trafcn wir mcinc schiirischen frcundc in ihrcm Quartier Zeynebiye,
so konnte cr auch sehen, an was ich arbciterc. Ich mag cs, wenn mcinc Familic sicht, was
ich tue. Also gingcn w ir dorthin, ;tiles war nett unci li·eundlid1 , wir tranken Tee unci mein
llrudcr llihltc sich wahl. Kcine Frauen. Dann gingen wir zu der Party. Auf dcrn \Vcg dorthin
wa( mcin Bruder sehr still. Wir k::Jmen dort in cine komplctt andere Welt. Ich nahm ein Glas
Champagner und als ich mcincn Bruder am BufTct wicder traf, sagtc cr: ,llist du vcrriickt, wic
kannst du das tun? \Vic kannst du so schncll vom cincn zum anderen Extrem wechseln?" Er
wusste, dass ich an dicse Obergiingc 1.wischcn verschieclenen \Velten gewohnt war, ctwa wcnn
ich rcgclmi
issig die Grcnzc zwischen Jerusalem unci lbmallah passicrtc, aber cr konntc nicht
vcrstehcn , wie ich so einfach switchen konnte, wiihrend er sich unwohl flihlte. lch antwortctc:
,Das ist me in normalcs Leben, Catering, llufTct, hedonistische Lebcnsart; so wuchscn wir auf.
Das andere ist ctwas, das ich wlinsehtc sein zu konncn."
I.W:: Abcr du cntschciclcst dich , cin Kunstwcrk iiber Lcute zu machcn, dcnen clu dich vcr­
bundcn fiihlst, unci nicht daftir mit ihnen
w
Ieben. Das ist cine interessante Unterscheidung.
ICE.: Genau. l'vlanehmal libcrlege ich, was passieren wiirdc, wcnn ich mieh in jcmandcn aus
dicscr Gruppe vcrlicbcn wlirclc. Abcr dicses Problem babcn viclc; sic sind aus vcrschicdencn
Gcmcinschaften und verlicbcn sich , k<>nncn jcdoch nicht aussehlicf3lich 'Icil dcr anclcrcn Gc­
mcinschafi wcrdcn. Es ist wie das L·111dei, das in die Grol3staclr kormnt unci don das Leben
genief3t, doch gleich7.eitig cine Familic hat,
um
die er sich klimmem muss, und zuri.ickgcht.
Vicllcicht muss auch ich zurlickkchren; cs ist cine schr schwierigc Entscheidung in cincr
dercn Gemcinschaft
w
an·
Ieben. Bis zu cincm gcwissen Grad bin ich glaubig, ich habc kcinc
llcrlihrungsl\ngstc mit allcm , was mit Religion zu tun hat, unci ich Ierne gcrn rnehr dar(ibet:
Und dcnnocb konntc ich nicht innerhalb diescr Gruppen Ieben, noch nicht. Zum Beispiel
die sehr gcschlosscne Gcmeinschaft clcr Schiitcn, das gclll gar nicht. Man kann nicht cinfach
konverticren, so wic man auch nicht nach lleliebcnJudc wcrden kann . Unci cin Filipino kann
ich natiirlich aueh nie wcrdcn! Aber ich kann experimcnticrcn. Vicllcicht forcicrc ich dcrarl
cine Vcrwirnmg mcincr Iclentitlil, abcr sclbst wenn, Iinde ich das in Orclnung. Vor Ianger Zeit
�
Oiichtctc ich aus Istanbul und ich bin noch imrner auf dcr Flucht. Abcr cs gcht nicht nur mn
.Istanbul. ,,V;ire ich in New York au(�c,vachscn) h�ittc ich dasselbe gctnacht, ich \V�irc vor cincr
Person oder cincr Situation gefliichtct, bis ich sagcn kann: ,Jetzt rcisc ich nicht mchr, ich
blcibe whausc und gchc fischcn." Aber das Leben ist kurz und ich mochtc expcrimcnticrcn;
ich mochtc Farbe in mcincm Leben. Und ich dcnkc, ich bcnutzc die Kunst als \Vcrkzcug dazu.
I.W.: Es crgibt sich cin spanncndcs Paradox, odcr sagcn wir cine Dynamik, class die Gcmcin­
schaftcn, mit dcncn du arbcitcst unci die du in dcincn Arbcitcn dokumcnticrst, so ct.was dar­
stcllcn wic cine Fantasic, cine Art utopischc Idee von cincr Gcmcinschall, die nicht wirklich
vic! mit dcr· Rcalitlit zu tun hat. 1..Vcil wir cs, vor allcm in dcr zcitgcnossischcn Kunst, gcwohnt
sind, den cthnografischcn Rahmen cincr Dokumcmation zu lcscn, vcrsuchcn wir die Arbeit
hinsichtlich ihrcs Infonnationsgchalts zu vcrstchcn. Abcr cigcntlich ist das, was wir in dcincr
Arbcit schcn, schr vic I nlihcr bci Fantasic odcr sogar Illusion; womit wir wicclcr beim Thea­
tralischcn wliren.
K.E.: Es gibt cine personlichc Illusion in mcincr Arbcit. Ich mag das Wort Utopic, dcnn es
bcschrcibt die Situation dcr filipinos in Israel; cs ist vcrriickt, class ich dicsc Lcutc trcffc, die
weit wcg von ihrcn Eltcrn, Kindcrn unci Ehem�inncrn fur viclc Jahre Ieben. Sic gchcn nur
viellcicht aile zwci Jahre hcim, um ihrc Familicn zu schcn. Vor Facebook unci Skypc war cs
nicht cinmal moglich sich zu sehcn. Utopic bcdcutctjcdoch nicht automatisch Gliick; abcr cs
ist ctwils, das ich nicht babe unci clas mich ncugicrig macht. Es war fur mich auch utopisch,
jcclcn Abend in cine Moschcc zu gchcn, um mich zu untcrhaltcn. Es war sclu· utopisch fiir
mich, class sich am crstcn Tag, als ich nach Zcyncbiye ging, aile Kopfc nach mir umdrchtcn
unci bcrcits nach cincr· Nacht in dcr ?v[oschcc mich nicmand mchr bcachtctc, wcil ich cin Tcil
von ihncn gewordcn war. Es war utopisch, class sic in dcr Nachbarschaft auch sp�itnachts aus
dcm Haus gchcn unci im Caf
e jcmand andcrcn auf cincn Tee trcOcn konncn. Engin, cincr·
mciner frcunde clort, sagtc mir· cines Tages: ,Das ist ein grol3artigcs Quarticr!" Ieh schamc
mich
tllll
unci sah Ubcrall Schmutz, cs war laut von all den flugzcugcn, die iiber das Quarticr
hinwcg startctcn, es gab kcine Bank, kcincn Gcldautomaten und kaum offc ntlichcn \l(:rkchr.
Es sici1L aus wic cin vcrgcsscncr Ort, cigcntlich dcr schlimmstmoglichc Fall fur jcmandcn wie
mich; ich jedcnfalls konnte nie dort Ieben! Die Hliuscr sind am Zerfallcn, cs ist ein Gctto,
abcr for ihn war cs das bestc Quarticr cler Welt! Man sicht diesc positive Einstcllung auch in
der philippinischen Gemcinsehaft in Israel. In einem dcr Inten•icws crz;\hlt Mary Lou, wic
groBartig Israel ist! Das ist ihrc Utopic. In unsercm individualistischcn Soziallebcn haben wir
dies nicht. Flir uns ist cs schwicrig, so positiv zu dcnkcn. Ich war wiihrcncl dcr Aufnahmcn zu
Aslmrn cine Wcilc lang wirklich clcprimicrt, abcr die Leute, die Gcmcinschaft konntcn mich
hcilcn.
I.W.: Abcr es gibt don sichcr aueh Dinge, tiber die man in cliescr Situation nicht sprcchen
kann,
I<.. E.: \"i<1s zum llcispicl?
I. W.: ,Mein Freund hat Herpes"?
ICE.: Tch bin mir· ziemlich sichcr, class cs moglich wl\rc. Es isr moglich, abcr cs basicrt auf
Vcrtraucn und Zeit, so wic es auch bci mcincr i\•luucr war� um meinc Homoscxualitiil zu
l Icnsch, zu dcm man cine cngc Bczichung hat, wire! dich akzcpticrcn,
ahcpticrcn. Ein gutcr V
wic du bist, was immcr clu auch hast.
I.W.: Abcr cs ist noch immcr cin Risiko unci ctwas, das man verhandcln muss. Nur, dassjcmancl
da ist, hcif3t nicht, class man mit dicscr Person auch i.ibcr a lies sprcchcn kann. Was ich versuchc
zu sagcn ist, class das utopischc Ideal hicr cine Fantasic ist. Einc bcstimmtc Zeit lang mag dies in
Ordnung sein, abcr cs ist cloch auch cine Situation, die zuglcich ausgrcnzcnd unci rcprcssiv ist.
K.E.: �v!an kann cs
so
schcn. Abcr man muss ja nicht jcdcm seine Problcmc crulfncn, man
kann nicht von jed em Hilrc crwarten. Es gibt Lcutc, mit den en man i.ibcr gewissc Dingc spre­
e hen kann, unci ancien�, mit dcncn das nicht gcht. Vicllcicht gchcn sic nicht ins Detail, abcr
sic rcspckticrcn dich als Person. Als ich zum Bcispicl mcincn philippinischcn Frcundcn sagte,
dass ich schwul sci, schricn sic: ,Ncin!" Abcr dann bcgannen sic sofort nach cincm Freund
fiir mich zu such en! Und wic du wcif3t, sind sic ja schr katholisch. Abcr manchmal muss man
nicht so(ort darlibcr sprcchcn, man muss es nieht thcmatisicren. Oclcr man sagt cs andcrs, mit
andcren Wortcn. Damit babe ich kcin Problem.
I.W.: Viclleicht kann man dariibcr auch sprcchcn, indcm man rragt, wie Ritunlc funktionic­
rcn. Oder wic du das Funktionicren von Ritualcn vcrstchst. Wcr ist clcr Adrcssat in cincm Ri­
tual? Was crhUlt cin Ritual lcbcndig, was ist seine Funktion? Wclche sozialcn und politischcn
Strukturcn crhillt es aufrccht?
K.E.: gs client cigentlich all em. Zunachst ist cs rcHcxiv; es adressicrt die Gcmcinscha!i:, wclche
am Ritual tcilnimmt. lVIcinc Erfahnmg ist, class man cs fflr sich seiher tut.
1.\V.: Abcr was hcif3t .Jiir sich sclbcr"? Ich glaubc nicht an die Idee des ,sclbst", auf cbs darin
angcsprochcn wird.
K.E.: Ritualc crhaltcn kulturcllc Codes. Die Filipinos brauchcn cine gcwissc Dosis Nostalgic,
die Erinncrung an ihre Hcimat, unci dies wird mit den Schonhcitswcttbcwcrbcn gelcistet.
Ahnlich wic bei den ti.irkischcn lmmigrantcn bci ihrcr Hochzcitsrcier, so ist dcr Schunhcits­
wcttbewcrb cbcnlillls cin Ritual von Immigrantcn; cs hillt ihrc Gcmcinschart am Leben. Hun­
dcrttauscnd .Mcilen cntrernt von zu Hause habcn sic Angst vor Vcrtinderung, vor Degenera­
tion odcr BceinOussung. Es ist cin Widcrstand gcgcn Assimilation. Es krcicrt glcichzcitig cine
Gclegcnheit, tun zusammcnzukommen und sich zu trclfcn, dcnn sic arbeitcn in vcrschicdc­
ncn Tcilcn lsracls. Sic kdnnen nicht cinrach sagcn: ,.Komm, trcllcn wir uns", wie ctwa die
Sehiiten in ihrcr Nachbarschaft, clenn ihrc Arbcitsorte sind manchmal scbr wcit voncinandcr
cntfcrnt. Dcshalb vcrsammcln sic sich in dcr zcntralcn Busstation, wo aile Busse aus Israel
ankommcn. Auch die Schiitcn erhalten ihrc Gcmcinschart, sic sind auch Immigrantcn. Die
mcistcn von ihncn, die in Istanbul Ieben, kommcn aus dem Grcnzgebict zu Ascrbcidschan.
Die Busuntcrnchmcn in Zcyncbiyc fahrcn lcdiglich zwci Dcstinationcn an unci bcidc sind in
diescm Grcnzgcbict; nach Ankara gibt cs zum Beispiel kcincn Bus.
Die Sehia-Bcwcgung ist cine politischc Bcwegung aus schr frlihcn Tagcn unci ihr Ritual
kommt dahc•; class sic von den Sunnitcn ungcrccht bchandclt wurden, als dicsc nach dcm
Tod des Propheten Mohammed die Macht iibernahmcn. Sic crwartetcn, class Ali die Macht
iibcrncbmcn wilrdc, dcnn cr war mit Mohammed blutsvcrwandt, doch cr \vurclc nieht zum
Kalifcn gcmaeht. Danach geschahcn zwci Zwischen!hlle: Zucrst wurdc Alis erstcr Sohn Has-
0
0
0
san crmor<.lct unci chum imjahr 680 scin jungcrcr Sohn Hussein in dcr Schlacht von Kcrbala.
Kcrbala war ein gro/3cs Massakcr und clas Aschura-Fest erinncrt alUahrlich an dicscn Tag;
mit clem Ritual crinncrn unci wicdcrholen sic den Schmcrz 1-lusscins unci seiner Familic, die
dircktc Nachkommcn des Prophctcn Mohammed warcn. Natlirlich ist cs schr parado>', wenn
?viuslimc andere Muslimc totcn. Zu Bcginn war dcr Islam cine einzigc Religion, doch zcrfiel
cr bald in die bcidcn Gruppcn dcr Sunniten und dcr Schiitcn.
Schia ist cine Widcrstandsbcwcgung, cine politischc 13cwcgung, unci all ihrc Ritualc haben
mit dicscm Widcrstand zu tun. Sic miisscn ihrc Kultur bcwahrcn. Ich bin siehc1; class cs im
Iran andcrs ist, clcnn dart sind die Schiitcn in dcr Mchrhcit. lm Jrnk unci im Libanon sind sic
cine 'v
l lindcrhcit, habcn abcr cine starke Prascnz durch die Hisbollah. In lstanhul gibt cs nur
cin paar wcnigc. Dt·shalb crhaltcn sic mit dicscm Ritual ihrc cigcncn kulturcllcn Codes, glcich
wic die Filipinos, unci gcdcnkcn dcr Vcrg;mgcnhcit. Dazu mlisscn sic das 131utvcrgicl3cn und
den Schmcrz ,wicdcrholcn", dcshalb dramatisicrcn sic cs. So iibcrlcbcn sic. Sic vcranstaltcn
ihrc Ritualc nicht uur im hciligcn Monat von Muharr<un, in clcm auch clcr cigcntlichc Tag
dcr Aschura licgt, sonclern clas ganze Jahr tiber jedcn Abend. Ganz :lhnlich ist cs mit dcr
philippinischcn Gcmcinschaft; als ich fragtc, was sic tun wOrden, wenn cs kcinc Schonhcits­
wcttbcwcrbc mchr gubc, wcnn jcmand kame unci sagtc: ,Ihr cliirft clas nicht mchr machcn",
sagtcn sic: , \Vir konncn nicht ohnc sic Ieben!" Ich fragtc die llirkischc Gcmcinsch;�ft in Berlin,
was gcschlihc, wcnn die dcutschcn Behorclcn die tiirkischcn Hochzcitszcrcmonicn vcrbictcn
wlirden und sic s<�gtcn: ,vVir konncn nicht wcitcrlcbcn ohnc sic. "
I.W. : Aber was gcnau von ,ihncn" ist cs, das ubcrlcbt? Mir schcint, class dicsc Ritualc wcni­
gc•· ums Obcrlcbcn gchcn, sondcrn um Rcproduktion;
11111
cbs Dedilrfnis nach Rcpmduktion
auf die cine odcr andere Weise, viclleicht cine litcrarischc oder kulturclle Rcproduktion. Die
Fragc, die sich fur mich stcllt, ist, was da reproduzicrt wird. Wclchc Aspekte von dicscn Gc­
mcinschaftcn wcrdcn bczi.iglich Rcproduktion sanktionicrt und wclchc nichr?
ICE.: Von went sanktionicrt?
l.v,(: Sanktionicrt von clcr rcproduktivcn Funktion des Rituals unci der Mnchtstruktw; die cs un­
tcrstlitzt. Einc Gcscllschaft muss sich rcproduzicrcn, abcr ich dcnkc, cs wird sclcktiv rcproduzicrt.
K.E.: Du mcinst, wcshalb sic dicsc unci nicht andere Ritu;�lc habcn? Wcshalb sic dicscn bc­
stimmtcn Aspckl ihrcs Lcbcns zcigcn?
I.W.: Warnnt solltc bcispiclswcisc die philippi nischc Gcmcinschuft unbediugt am Schonhcits­
wcttbcwcrb li:sthaltcn wollcn, wo dicscr doch cine Idee von Schonhcit rcproduzicrt, die cine
Viclzahl anclcrcr Lcutc ausschlidlt und glcichzcitig cine sozialc Hit�rarchic aufrccht crhalt?
lch wtirdc mcincn, class das Ritual im Dicnstc von politischcn odcr idcologischcn Intcrcsscn
stcht. Es crhillt cin gcwisscs Machtglcichgcwicht.
K.E.: Ja, natllrlich, abcr den Schonhcitswcttbcwcrb mar untcr dcm Aspck1 von Wcttbcwcrb
unci O bcrlcgc nhcit zu bctrachtcn, ist falsch. Ritu<Jlc u·cnnen nicht wic im Theater Konstlcr
unci Performer vom Pnblikum. Es ist allumfasscnclc Pnrti7.ipation. Das Mlldchcn auf clcm
Laur.�tcg und die Zuschaucr nchmcn bcidc tcil und vcrgniigcn sich glcichcnnaflcn. Es mag
Lcutc gcbcn, die clcnkcn, class dicsc Art dcr Schonhcit uns auloktroyicrl wird, abcr wic im
Film
zu
schcn ist, sind sic ja nicht. auflcrordcntlich schon. Sic untcrschcidcn sich oflcnkundig
vom amerikanischen Schonhcitsidcal, welches sic kopicrcn. Es wire! in cincr fiir mich schr
schtincn t\ rt und We ise modifizicrt, dcnn allc konncn mitmachcn. lch habc gchon, class cs
auf den Philippincn schr \'icle Schonhcitswettbcwcrbe gibt; solchc fUr vcrhciratctc Frauen,
solche fiir allcinstchcndc f'raucn, f'Lir Ladyboys, filr Kinder und so fort. Abcr cs gcht nicht
so schr clarum, zu zcigcn, wic schon man ist, um inncrhalb dcr Gcscllschaft aufzustcigen. Es
ist nicht wic dcr klassischc gricchischc Schonhcitswcltbcwcrb, dcr den Troj;mischcn Krieg
vcrursachte, cs ist allcs sehr \'icl grofiziigigcr. Es geht urn cincn Anlass, um die Gcmcinschaft
zusammcnzubringcn; cs ist wirklich einfaeh. Allzu viclc sozialphilosophischc Erkliirungcn
sind cia nicht notwcnclig. Sic kommen zusammcn, kochcn und sammcln Geld zusammcn - sic
sammcln Geld fi.lr ihrc Gcmcinschaft mit clicsen Schonhcitswcubcwcrbcn, cs funktioniert wic
in dcr Kirchc - also hat cs nicht cinfach nur mit Schonhcit zu tun. Es ist dassclbc mit den
t(irkischcn Hochzcitcn. Es kommcn die vcrschicdcncn Gruppen dcr Familic zusnrnmcn unci
unterst(itzcn sich gcgenseitig linanzicll.
I.W.: Abcr cs sind irnmcr die .M�inncr, die Geld gebcn.
K.E.: In clcr traclitioncllen liirkischen Kultur wcrclcn Frauen mit cincr bcsondcrcn Hoflichkcit
bchandclt, die ich in dcr wcstlichcn Gcscllschaft nicht schcn kann. Sic wcrdcn rcspektvoll
erwgcn unci hchnndclt, und die Miinncr dicncn ihncn. Auch bci den Hochz.citcn ist es die
frau, die dcm tvlann das Geld gibt; cr stcllt dann mal' unci ilbcrgibt es fUr sic. Ocr sozialc
Stand dcr Frau inncrhalb dcr Gcscllschnft ist eigcntlich schr hoch. Zuclcm haben die Frauen
ihre eigcncn sozialcn Zirkel.
1.\.Y.: Ich dcnkc, cs hat damit zu tun, wen man in eincr 'v
l lachtposition wahrnimmt und wen nicht.
K.E.: Wcr, mcinsl du, wird nicht als machtig wahrgcnommcn?
I.W.: Das Video JI!EDDJNG zcigt, class die Frauen don kcinc Stimmc habcn. Abcr ich vcrsu­
che gcnerellcr zu argumcnticrcn, indcm ich behaupte, class sozialc Formationcn eher vca·su­
chcn, bcstehende Macht\'crhllltnissc zu zcmcnticrcn �1ls sic in Fragc zu stcllcn.
K.E.: Da bin ich nicht einverstanden. In allen Ritualen, die ich sclbcr gcschcn habc, sci es
in Binibining, WEDDING odcr Ashurn, wurde nicmals jcmand klein gcmacht. Aile haben die
glcichcn Moglichkcitcn unci die gleichc Macht.
1.\V. : Wic vcrstchst clu ,glcich"?
K.E.: Die Tatsachc, class die Manner das Geld iibcrrcichcn, bcdcutct nicht, class sic mehr
Macht hnbcn.
1.\<V.: Abcr du zcigst es im Video als etwas ausschlicfllich Mi\nnlichcs. Unci in dcr Arbcit wird
dcmlich, class du dcm ausgcsprochcn kritisch gegentibcrstchst. Woraul' ich hinaus will, ist die
Tatsachc, dnss cin Ritual nicht nur cincr idcalcn, fantastischcn Situntion cntspricht, sondern
cbcnfalls Einschluss unci Ausschluss, Attraktion und Abstofiung zur sclhcn Zeit bcinhaltct.
Und wic wir bercits bcsprochcn haben, cntspricht dies ebenfalls dciner Bezichung als Indivi­
clullln zu diescn Gruppen. Es sind zwci verschicdenc Richtungen, die in dicscn Situationcn
zugleich cxisticren.
K.E.: Vcrschicdcnc Richtungcn zur sclbcn Zeit in dersclbcn Situation. Abcr ich vcrlindcrtc
mich iiber die Zeit hinwcg auch. Bcim Filmcn unci Schncidcn von Wl!.IJD!NG hasstc ich die
mtinnlichc Dominanz wcrst, aber jetzt finde ich sic zicmlich normal; cs ist cinfach der Mann,
clcr dicsc Rolle tibcrnimmt. Sic arbcitcn ja cigcntlich vid mchr, wlihrcnd die Frauen sitzen,
zuscbaucn, sich amtisicrcn und glcichzcitig die Ubersicht behalten. Hcutc denkc ich, class
Austausch unci Recycling von Gcschcnken cine schr gute Sachc ftir cine Gcmcinschaft sind,
dcnn sic crhaltcn sic finanziell und emotional. Dingc, die ich wniichst ncgativ fand, finde ich
jctzt positiv. An diesem Punkt in meinem Leben sehe ich in keincr dcr Feiern negative Macht­
kiimpfe. Ich sehc nur gutc Sci ten, sci cs in Binibining, I VEDD!NG oder Aslwm.
I.W.: Ich wlirdc bchauptcn, class du auch negative Scitcn zeigst; dcine Arbeitcn nchmen cine
kritische Position cin, zuglcich mit eincr, die auf Einschluss basicrt. Denkst du nicht, class, urn
vollstandig an cincm Ritual teilzunchmcn, crwanet wird, class du etwas nulgibst? Einzclnc
Aspekte von dir oder Tcile deincr Art zu Ieben?
K.E.: Dcfinitiv. Manche Lculc sagcn, cs sci Gchirnwaschc, andere sagen, cs sci gut. Aber das
ist Teil des Spiels. Man verlicrt seine Individualitat durch die Tcilnahmc am Ritual; dan�ch
kann man sic wicdcr zurilckhaben. Dicsc Dosen, die Emile Durkhcim als ,Giirung" bczeich­
nctc, sind flir jcdc Gesellschaft wichtig; wir aile tun dies, auch mit modcrnen Ritualen. Es ist
ganz olTensichtlich cin i\spckt allcr Ritualc, class man das zul01sscn muss.
Die Idee des Tanzens in cincm Kreis finde ich schr imercssant: Man kann wirklich umfnllcn,
wcnn jcmand de inc Hand loslasst, also muss man den Leu ten wirklieh vcrtraucn. \'Venn cs
tllllS Gcldziihlcn gcht, so muss die Gruppe wic ein Finanzinstitul funktioniercn. In Binibining
rnachen sic mit, indcm sic flir ihrc Lieblingsbcwerbcrinjohlcn unci so fort: sic wcrdcn eins unci
vcrgcssen sich sclber. \Venn man sich dcm wiclcrsctzt, wird cs problematisch.
I.W.: Nallirlich ist es auch cine Entlastung von ?v!Oglichkeitcn. Ich bin schr skeptisch, was
die Idee dcr Wahl in Bczug aqf die Demokratie angcht, beispielswcisc, class cs sich dabci
um ctwas handclt, was unliberlcgt crstrcbenswert sci. lch glaubc nicht an die Dcmokratic als
Spitzc dcr Zivilisation.
K.E.: Viele Rcligioncn stcllcn die FI·agcn pcrsonlichcr Wahl zur Seite. Und die Lctllc f't.ihlcn
sich wohl, wcnn sic gewissc Dinge nicht wlihlen mlisscn. \Venn man cs so vcrstcht, clann wird
man gcgcnlibcr viclcn Dingcn im Leben tolerant. Abcr wir Ieben in cincr Welt, in dcr die
Leutc lcrnen, cine Wahl zu trclTcn unci flir dicsc dann einzustehcn. lch findc clas anstrcngcnd.
\'Vir sind von so viclen anti-religioscn Aul3crungcn umgebcn und so viclc Leute findcn, man
mUssc sich lllr oclcr gcgen ctwas cntschcidcn. Vicllcicht wiihlcn sic in manchcn Gcsellschaftcn
in cler Welt nicht aus, wie ctw.-. die schiitischc Gruppc in Aslwm. Es ist moglich so zu Ieben unci
wir mlisscn dafiir olTcn scin. Und ich sclber wcrdc dank meincr fntcraktioncn imrncr olTencr
claflir. Jch empfindc mich als schr vic! tolcrantcr als noch vor scchs oder sicben Jahrcn. Die
cinzigc Saehc, fOr die ich kcincrlci Yerst;inclnis babe, ist dcr rcpublibnischc, weltliche unar­
rogantc Tcil dcr tlirkischcn Gesellschaft.
llcrlin, imjuli 20 I I
WH O
AM
I
ANYWAY ?
ELII·IAS DF.NI7. in conversation with
KQKEN F.RG UN
'"
0
EI.MAS DENIZ:
In your works there's a common thread I'd like to discuss with you, that is of crowds, com­
munities, and masses. You work on public ceremonies and rituals where there arc groups o f
people, n o t individuals. In Biuibining Prami$ed Land o r WEDDING, you train your camera o n
specific communities. Even i n TANKLOVE, the audience you're addressing arc residents of a
village. Up to now, you've never told a story, never produced a work based on an individual.
Can you talk about this decision�
KOKEN 1\RCUN
There's actually one work that features an individual, Untitltd. I'm the one \vho performs
in this video, yet I'm interested in a group that's relevant to the issue I'm dealing with. As a
performance, l put on different types of hcadscarvcs while crying. What I address here is the
fact that the Turkish state, with a policy of official secularism, I call it conservative secularism,
banned the wearing of hcadscarvcs in universities and o11 state-owned premises. The group
who's challenged by this ban is not small at all. Apparently, I'm not the person who's subjected
to pressure in regard to this issue. Again, it's somebody else. What I try to do is to put myself
in their shoes and to get a grasp or their everyday experience.
E. D.: In other words, your subject is never an individual. Can yon talk a bit more about this?
K.E.: Here's something I think about a lot. For me, there an: two groups or people. The fir·st
group consists of those who act and express themselves as free individuals and believe they
can change the Oow of events in the world, following a deterministic attitude. This includes
people living in the geographical area we're in at the moment. On the other· hand, people in
the second group, mostly those I met in the East and more specifically around the Eastern
1vlcditerranean, act with and within communities. I wasn't smart enough
lO
think about this
distinction when I made Untitled. It's been seven years since I started making art, but it's only
in the last couple of years that I can say my main interest or "issue" is "groups versus incli­
viduals." There must be
a
concern that's hidden in me which I can't figure out easily. This
must be the reason why I'm inquiring into this issue. I feel restless if I don't make works that
scmtinisc it.
E. D.: That's interesting because when you produce works, you say you have an "issue," some·
thing thllt makes you uncomfortable-you even describe this by using the word "exorcism".
I'm curious as to where you stand as a subject in this situation. You don't focus on individuals,
you arc present by choosing the subject, and you always talk about groups and communities.
In your work, where do you stand as an individual?
I<.E.: I'm in the work. This has changed and taken different forms over time. But I've always
been in the work one way or the other. Yet not every project is based on issues I personally
feel connected to. I, Soldier, T!te F
lag, and Untitled definitely reflect the issues I've been inquir­
ing into, I think these arc related to traumas I lu1d in my adolescent years. I step back a bit in
WEDD!NG, as in this video the focus is a social situation. Similarly, TA.NKLOJIE inquires into a
social issue that emerges from the political history of Turkey. But it also touches on individual
concerns that I have. It is in the end a reaction to simplistic statements that I keep hearing
abroad such as, "\Vc arc a democratic society and you arc not." I made this project in order
to say, "Look, this could happen to you too." And when I think about Binibining that looks at
Filipino� in Israel, I have to say th<lt I'm also an immigrant, living i:H· <tway from my country
and missing my homeland. However...
E.D.: What about 11J'hura?
ICE.: 1 wouldn't say I have a lot of personal things in common with the subjects in As!ult'a.
E.D.: l think you've become clearer about your focus in these years, as you've developed a
more articulated and well-defined interest in groups, communities and their rituals. Do you
think
U1at
could be the rc<�son?
K.E.: Yes, looking b<tck at it now, I think it happened naturally that I developed this way. I
guess my imcrcst in communities emerged before I realised it. I have a talent in communicat­
ing easily with people and gathering them together. This is the strongest aspect of my artistic
practice too, bringing people together and doing things with them. I also open myself up to
them. People I work with know a lot of personal information about me. I'm not reserved and
I don't hide much. The project with the Shiite community has evolved diffcremly though,
because at first I wasn't able to speak to them like I could to my Filipino friends in Israel. For
a month, I met up with this group in the mosque, watched rehearsals, shot film, but at the end
of the rehearsal, I would leave their neighborhood and go back to my life. We therefore didn't
speak much about personal issues. It was only after the clay of Ashura that I was invited for
dinner at their homes. There we got to know each other bettc1; I talked about many details
from my life, but not eve1·ything, of course.
E.D.: In Biuibiuiug, the community you're involved with is together for
entertainment
pur­
poses, there's a beauty pageant at stake. But we know they all face serious problems in their
lives. In contrast, the community in A.r/wra has a more serious reason to form a collective, this
can't be compared to a beauty pageant. This contrast must have aOccted your communication
with them, am 1 right?
K.E.: Yes, indeed. But l'm ::�)so sure that our communication will take different forms in time.
I will definitely improve my relationship with them in the coming years.
E.D.: Arc there any projects you wanted to keep working on?
K.E.: I actually keep working on all of my projects. When I finish filming a group, my commu­
nication with them doesn't come to an end. 1 visit them very ollen. If I can't visit them, we're
in touch through Faccbook. Among tl1e Filipinos, there's only one person,Jamcs Dandan, the
transsexual organiscr of the beauty pageant, who doesn't use Faccbook, so I speak with him
on the phone every month. As I'm curious about what he's up to, I always call him up. We're
confidants. We speak lor hours. \"11c gossip too. For example, recently he s<1id, "My friend, my
fricn<.l, there's a problem!" as soon as he started talking on the phone. His visa for Israel was
about to expire. "I don't want to go back to the Philippines. I c<tn perhaps come to Turkey, I
heard that tnnsvestitcs arc treated well there," he added. I said that the situation was okay,
but not brilliant. "Oka), then I come to Germany, and you find me a job when I get there," he
responded. I told him that it wasn't that easy, and we needed to get him a visa in advance, etc.
And last month, when I visited Israel, Filipino friends who heard about my visit called me up
and had similar requests. I felt sad, but at the same time I felt strangely proud of' the trust we'd
developed O\·er the years.
It's also been three years since [ finished 7il.NKLOVE. Every year I go back
m
the village where
I shot the video, I visit residents, and revisit the marks that were lc!i: behind as the tank drove
through the \'illagc. \Vc have dinners together. This year, for the first time, I wasn't able to go.
And I told myscll; "I now feel very scattered, since I'm involved with many people from many
projects, I have a hard time following them up."
I also revisit or rcOcct on prqjects. Earlier works like I, Soldier, The F
lag or Wl!JJD!NG evolve
through my blogs, which I update 11-om time to time. 1-YEDD!NG is a more voyeuristic project
compared to the recent ones. When I was filming for this project, I would shoot the footage and
run away. JV[y relation to the communities was very ditrercnt then. But now the video is on dis­
play in Berlin and, with the people who helped me film back then we're trying to find the sub­
jects in the video. I want to contact them, invite them to sec the video, or send them the film.
E.D.: Do you think this is an ethical approach that has evolved over time?
K.E.: Yes, it is. It disturbs me terribly if I can't get full permission !'rom the people I film. Now
it's much harder to make voyeuristic work for me, because my ethical approach has evolved
in such a way. That's precisely the reason why I want to go back to the people you sec in the
video and say, "I shot this video years ago, I want to share it with you now."
Adem, a l'riend from the Calcri community recently told me he wanted to visit the exhibition
in Winterthur. The Shiite community I filmed in Istanbul belongs to the Cafcri group of the
Shin. If Adem had said this before, I would have been anxious and kept wondering whether
he would have liked it or not. Or I'd have been worried about what the community leaders
would have said. But now I lccl that whether they like it or not isn't
so
important. The project
has reached another level. They sec how much effi>rt I put into this project, so they would
appreciate the work in the end, perhaps without judging it aesthetically.
E. D.: If Aslulfa had been your first piece, we wouldn't have the opportunity to read your work
in this way. Your ethical decisions wouldn't be that visible. Do you agree?
K.E.: What you're saying sounds like reversing the Creation. I t just had to be this way and has
evolved over time. So, I wouldn't think about it that way.
E. D.: Let me try to clarify my point. I would worry about the representation of' a religious ritual
as such, but your attitude and communication with people you film for your work puts me at
case. I'm now convinced. l'm also fi·om Istanbul and I'm lilmiliar with the delicate nature of
these issues. That's why I brought it up. Who speaks for whom? How docs one talk about it?
Otherwise you're right, we can't reverse the Creation.
Well, anyhow. Let me ask you this, how do you position yourself within the artistic production
in Turkey?
ICE.: \Veil, I don't really position myscl[ I don't C\'Cn know if I should. It doesn't interest me
much. To be honest, I'm not very interested in thinking about this question either. I simply
move forward. This is a question I olkn ask myself, how aware should an artist be about other
artists, and how crucial is it, for an artist, to sec other art works?
E.D.: Perhaps this is related to how )'OU started your artistic practice. Artists who come from
art schools think a bit differently. You ultimately dccicled to make art as you said you clidn't
want to be an actor. Maybe this is why you're not interested in other artists and their works.
ICE.: Yes, I had no intention of making films in the beginning. But I clon't think this would
be a goocl answer to your question. I'm f;�rniliar with artists who come from an school back­
grounds. Do I not have similar anxieties? Of course I do. E\·ery artist seeks to be recognised ...
But whm I'm not concerned about is positions at a national level, or even at the level of cities
such as Istanbul or Berlin. No wonder I have issues with the nation-state, and I still have a
hard time understanding any type of national representation.
That isn't to say I don't have a sense of belonging. For example, here, in Berlin, I might praise
Turkish foocl, or say, "Turkey has been doing really well!" but that doesn't mean that I feel as
if I belong to Turkey as a citizen, or any country for that matter. It is rather something to do
with living abroad.
I also like travelling. The most imponant reason I live in 13erlin right now is that I had wanted
to live in an international city since I was a kid. One night, I could have
a
fi·icnd fi·om Argen­
tina over for dinner, another night I could host a friend from Israel, and another night from
Lebanon. Then they could all come together, we could share the same table, the same meal. I
just don't want to be in t h e same environment all the time ...
E.D.: Perhaps that's why you work with dilTcrcnt communities in your work.
K.E.: Yes, maybe that's the case.
E.D.: \·Vhcn you were growing up, Istanbul was indeed much less multicultural.
ICE.: It's maybe better now, but the city sull isn't a crossing point. Unlike the Ottoman C:m­
pire, not everyone wants to go there. There's a lot of traffic in Istanbul, but it's still not a world
city. This is of course related to the dissolution of the Empire and the establishment of the
nation-state. But I don't think these arc the only reasons. Anyhow, I'm concerned about the
fact that Istanbul, at some point, became Turkificd, leaving its international identity behind.
Th:u's why I first escaped to London. Back then, I loved Western literature, partly bec::1use
of my own interests, partly because of my high school education, and I was fnscinated by
London in Dickens' works. I'm sure I would read it diiTcrendy now. But, you know it ns well,
every Istanbulite wants to run <�Way from the city at least for once in his or her life. So do you . . .
E.D.: You're saying that you had n longing
to
live in a cosmopolitan city while growing up.
Here it's worth saying that your work is not only about Turkey. You make work about various
immigrant communities and lifestyles in m<�ny di fferent countries. ln Binibining, you spe�k
English, whereas in Asl111ro you wmmunicate in Turkish. In TA.NKLOT'E, you1· audience is all
Danish. Here, what I'd like to discuss more is the relation between your works and the places
you've been to. Perhaps people choose to live far away from the places their identity comes
from. They run away and migrate out of the country because of their problems with their
own community or nation. Your interest is in representing the lives of small groups like mi­
norities, immigrants, who all live abroad, or away from horne. You've been in the region that's
called the i\•Iiddlc E;�st a lot, you haven't made any work on the subject of occupation. Tell me
more about your relationship to the geography you nrc concerned with.
c:
c
K.E.: I also nm away. For me, running away is related to the relationship between love and
hate. We sometimes leave a place because we hate it so much, but then realise we left because
we loved it so badly. Love for the country you give up on because you hate it gets stronger
when you happen to have a distance from it. I had a similar experience. As I travelled, I
came to appreciate my own culture much better than [ used to. Although I lived in Western
Europe and North America during this period, I started becoming interested in the cultures
of our neighbouring countries. Here neighbour doesn't mc:�n countries that have borders
with present-day Turkey, it's more about v:�rious cultures that co-existed during the Ottoman
Empire. This is the reason why I've often gone to Israel, Palestine, and Lebanon for instance.
There arc a lot of similoritics between these cultures and our culture, from food to jealousy
and gossiping. I think this is one of the reasons why the Empire survived for so many centu­
ries, its different communities arc emotionally similar to each other. This is not a rchl\ionship
you would lind in other empires based on overseas colonies, such as the British Empire.
So I'm very attracted to the Eastern v
! leditcrrancan. There, I fctl likc one of them, and peo­
ple treat me as such. This has never happened to me in Western Europe. I'm inspired by this.
To be honest, ['rn also inspired by conflict. For instance, l wouldn't be inspired by a wealthy
and stable society, such as Germany where
a cat
stuck on
a
roof could be on the news. But
this is a place where I can concentrate on my work. That's why I shoot my videos in Turkey
or similar countries and edit them in a calm place like Germany. I n other words, Berlin is like
a library to me.
One day, an Israeli friend who visited me in Berlin told me hesitantly, "I want to leave Tel Aviv
for New York, what do you think?" I said, "You could get used to it in time, look how I got
used to it here ... " He responded, "You could live in any place in the world, and get used to it
in two months and make people get used to you as well!" As I said earlier, I have good com­
munication skills with diverse groups of people. This is actually my artistic practice as well,
but would you call this an? I don't know nnd I'm not really interested either. You asked how I
position myself in the arts community in Turkey. If you asked the same question about Berlin,
I wouldn't be able to answer it either. 'lvlaybc that shows I really don't care. But l'm not saying
this because I feel hurt by these communities. Some say, "I never go to exhibition openings!"
This is not my appronch. Recently, at t.he opening of the Hilseyin Bahri Alptckin exhibition
at SALT in Istanbul, I saw a statement on a wall, which made me very emotional, it made
me cry: "! love art, I hate artists." It's a beautiful saying, it's deep. Hate seems to be a strong
word, but it's nlso very delicate. Hilseyin is very sincere about it, not just reactionary or bitchy,
I know this because I know him. What I like more is to get to know the artist's personality and
then look at his or her work limn that nngle.
E.D.: That was precisely what I wnntccl to ask! How important is it to know the artist's per­
sonality?
K.E.: I think it's very important. Also, the person who sees my work should be able
couple of things about me in the work.
to
lind a
E.D.: This is actually an answer to my previous question about your presence in the work.
K.E.: I'm always present in the work, but l don't seck to push myself to the front. Alfred
Hitchcuck is always present in his films, or David Lynch plays smnll roles in his work, or the
brush strokes of Van Gogh arc his authorial signature. 1 don't aim for such visibility. 1 would
like to be prcselll in the work in a more abstract way. My presence rather involves spending a
lot of time with the subjects in the work, to think about and with them, and most importantly,
to be sincere about all this.
E. D.: Your work c<Jn be very inspiring for people who have "sterile" lives. I mean those who
live '�ith people similar to them, but you show groups that one would be less likely to encoun­
te•· in their lives. Ashum, WE
DDING, and Biuibiuiug explore unfamiliar communities, which
may tell the audience that they live in sterile conditions. Would you s<Jy so?
K.E.: Yes, I sometimes want my work to be a slap in 1hc face. I am actually a liulc mischievi­
ous. In my work, I therefore reveal what I hide in my daily life. In TA.N!t"LOI'E, I made a tank
drive through the streets in Denmark, because I was so angry at Europeans and North Ameri­
cans. I wanted to say, "How dare you try and teach us what dcmocraC)' is? Take this seriously,
one day this could happen to you too."
In Kiasma, in 2003, T worked on a project called J."imo, with Platform Garanti Comemporary
Art Center. We recorded voices, talks, daily routine in Platform's oiTicc and gallery, to he
used in a sound installation. Vasif Kortun, director of Platform, used the terms "inhale" and
"exhale" for this. That's to say, we would inhale the sounds in Istanbul and exhale them in
Helsinki. In contrast, I always thought of the term "vomit" for this project. I was perennially
angry about the sterile conditions in Europe and the resulting attitude of Europeans looking
down on us. I wamed to say, look, there arc many different worlds. I work with Filipinos in Is­
rael,
a
group that many Israelis wouldn't notice, or the Shiite minority that many Istanbulites
don't know about... It is similar to what our grandmothers would say, "Look son, sec how
many d ifferent lives arc out there!" This is what I w:mr to show.
E.D.: Here I'd like to clarify why I asked about how you position yourself in Turkey. I'm
interested in discussing your thoughts in regard to exoticisation and identity politics. For ex­
ample, in the reception of your video Unlillul, there's a big risk of exoticisation. It's thcn:fore
better that you c<tn move through different international contexts beyond the one and only
in Turkey.
K.E.: Let me a�k the s<tmc question to you. How do you position me?
E.D.: Well, 1 make comments rather than ask questions. It's a good thing that you don't posi­
tion your work only in the Turkish context, this gives you a larger and more Oexiblc space. We
nevertheless sec many <trt works that don't go beyond exoticisation. I think you're different.
K.E.: Actually I can't cxoticise myself, because I don't lind myself interesting.
E.D.: I wanted to bring this up because there's a common problem that we often cncountet·.
1 call it 1:-.lsc modesty. I t implicates the Western person who acts as if he or she's equal to you
on the discursive level, and still secretly looks down on you. This usually results in the exoti­
cisation of the work, or else the source sclf-exoticising. I was curious about your take on this.
In your works, you're the cameraman, editing person, producer, and the translatm·. What
would you be if you were to pick a persona? \A,'ould you call yourself a translator, observer,
or an author?
K.E.: I call it "attached observer". It could also be called "participa11t" but, actually, it's 11ot
really possible. I'm not a Shiite, I'm 11ot a Filipino immigrant woman, and I'm not a Turk
who was born and grew up in Germany. To put it simply, I'm just a guest that's welcomed by
the host.
Also, the groups I focus on don't really like telling stories, shooting films and distributing them,
whcrcns in my culture it's the opposite cnse. So here I act as a "medintor". I wouldn't call
myself an authm; a directm; or e\'en an artist.
E.D.: So maybe this should be your definition of art.
ICE.: Hito Steyer! had a similar thought. She said to me, "You're n messenger." I would ngt·ee
with her. It's helpful to hcnr someone else's reading o f your work, you u11derstnnd your own
practice in
n
better way.
E.D.: '·Vhat's beautiful in your work is that you show minorities or groups that arc rarely rep­
resented. On the one hand, there's n risk of ethnic documentation, exoticisation. On the other
hand, your work is loud in a positive sense. You usc documentary techniques, lor instance you
li\'e with the groups you work with, as an "attached obscrvct;" and you usc a camera without
a tripod. '<\'hat's your relation to or distance from documentary practices? How close do you
get to the "other's voice"?
ICE.: I don't think about my work as being documentary, but there might be similarities. I'm
aware of other artists who work along similar lines, but 1 don't have a pressing urge or curios­
ity to see their work. In terms of technique or method, what I care about most is that there's a
unity between myself and the people I work with. 1 don't see the projects only as film projects.
'·Vith time, I came to realise that my projects arc tools for me to understand myself:
E.D.: Or the opposite.
ICE.: What do you mean?
E.D.: Let's say you're the messenger who finds a message to carry. The message is fo1· both
the subject and the audience. You also help the subjects to know themselves. You provide the
opportunity for us to get to know these groups as well. You shouldn't underestimate yourself:
.
I<-.E.: You're right but I'd hesitate to make such a statement about myself. I want to stay hum­
ble beci\usc otherwise it feels likr. it's egotistical.
E. D.: I know that you edited your footage for Binibining according to the aesthetic choices of
Filipino girls. You consulted them and you were inspired by them. Perhaps what makes your
work different li·01n the documentary format is that, in post-production, you edit the footage
and remain
as
close as possible to their reality. You keep their reality in the finn! work.
K.E.: 1\olore recently, I've become interested in raw footage. This interest started with my
involvement in the 13''l
Jelr.m archives in jerusalem. I got very excited when I learned that these
were documentary filmmakers who started this video department. Apparently, they stopped
working as documentary filmmakers and established this department at 13'Tsdem.
E.D.: Really? That i� impressive.
K.E.: Yes, the founder Oren Yakabovie and the current director Yoav Gross both used to work
as documentary filmmakers. They told me that at one point they didn't find their practice
meaningliil and cllcctivc enough, so they started this project. Shooting Back, the video project
of B'Tsrlem, has been very inspirational for me. They took a new approach to the documentary
format, in which there is an expanded concept of authorship. This is an important jxoject for
both the world and the communities in that area.
E.D.: Have you ever used hidden cameras to film a community?
!<..E.: Absolutely not. That's rhe thing I hate the most. First I become friends w ith the com­
munity and during that time never take my camera out of my pocket. J ask for permission
when the time is right. lf permitted, I start shooting and take it very slowly because 1 try to sec
what my boundaries arc with the community. If not permitted, I don't make any images at all.
1 get very angry at artists who lilm without permission. I remember watching a film by ll•lark
Houlous at the last Berlin Biennial, which was about oilficlds in the Niger delta. In the film,
there was a section in which the cameraman or the artist, I'm not sure exactly who he was,
insisted on shooting a Nigerian man with his camera alt hough the man bad clearly refused to
be filmed. I couldn't stand it and had to run away from the Kunstwerkc. I had gooscbumps.
Similarly, Yael Bartana has entered an orthodoxjewish neighborhood in Israel with her cam­
era during Purim celebrations and made a 111m from this footage. It was obvious that the artist
was a stranger to the neighborhood and the residents weren't happy about her camera.
E.D.: When the first version of i)inibiniug \vas shmvn
at
the Overtime f'ftin-k exhibition, I thought
of an aspect of the work that you haven't discussed yet: conditions of labor. In the video, you
show a beauty pageant and we observe people who arc having fun. But in reality, their work­
ing conditions aren't pleasant at all. \Vas it because of this that you added the interviews in
the latest ,·ersion of the work?
K.E.: Indeed, a second voice was needed. It's a very complicated situation. Think about it,
you go to Israel and in the midst of all those conflicts you make a video about the beauty pag­
eants of Filipino domestic servants! I t sounds odd even in this short sentence! I had to include
an intimate layer so that the video wouldn't immediately evoke irony or sarcasm. I had to add
individual voices living in this communi ty. James had to talk, and Mary Lou did too. It would
have been unfair to them if the project had only been about the film of the pageant.
E.D.: Can you also talk about the magazines you're using in the gallery space? Why nrc these
publications part of your presentation of the projec t?
K.E.: There arc five magazines for the Filipino community in lsracl, such as F
ocal, Jl1allifa Tel
Aoio, Kapami!J·a, Afabuhfl)' lsratf, etc. These remind me of JHerlwba magazine for Turkish im­
migrants in Germany. Immigrants' magazines have similar characters in very different parts
of the world. They keep the community together, they case the longing for the homeland,
protect the language and the culture. Almost like immigrant communities living in the same
neighborhood. It serves a similar purpose. J:Or instance the bus station where the beauty pag­
eant takes place, Tachana Merkazit, is a public space under immigrants' control. The fifth
noor with a lot of shops is called i\1anila Avenue. Filipinos own all the shops. They cook in
their spare time at home and sell the food in ivl anila Avenue on Saturdays. Some shops import
goods fi·orn the Philippines. Bar-gocrs drink filipino beer. In shan, this is a place to satisfy
your longing for your homeland. There's colourful human traflic here that looks similar to
what you find at the main bus station in Istanbul. Oh, by the way, in Germany Turkish immi­
grants arc legally allowed to open shops but in Israel Filipinos don't have this right. A Filipino
woman can only open and own a shop in Tachana J\-lcrkazit if she has an Israeli husband.
Also, work permits arc only gi,·cn to domestic servants and arc limited to four years.
Goin1; back to the magazines, 1 should say that they started publishing these magazines ten
years ago, so I wasn't able to display all of them. According to the selection we've made, we
will make a collage of the magazine covers from the last three years and mount it on a wall, in
non-chronological order. There arc numerous subjects common to these covers: beauty tips,
deportation, violence against women, etc. There are many cm·crs with images of women who
have been beaten, as well as images of women in beauty pageants. The audience therefore has
the opportunity to scan the last three years of this community. Another interesting detail, the
back covers of these magazines arc the biggest and the most expensive spaces for advertising.
\Ve observed that many magazines had no ads on the back. Instead, there's an image of Jesus
and it reads, 'Jesus, l trust in you." This image also reappears in the Divine lVlcrcy Chapel
which they built in an abandoned building. This image of Jesus is part of the collage on the
wall, highlighting the role of religion in this comnmnity.
E. D.: 'vVould these images help you to relate Binibining to !hlwrn? Would they say something
about the juxtaposition of two very dincrcnt groups within the exhibition space?
K.E.: Yes, indeed. Filipinos in Tel Aviv arc closely associated with each other through jesus.
The Shiite minority in Istanbul through Hussein. Both lead us to the same point: my interest
in religion.
E. D.: I remember seeing a couple of books about this in your library, and also your emphasis
on this subject in your recent talks. We also discussed religious excitement when we watched
footage fi·om Aslwrn. Can you elaborate on this?
K.E.: My interest in religion st�rtecl as I traveled to the East, before Aslwm, during my work
on Binibining. I don't think of Istanbul when I say East-t:lwre's "East" in Istanbul but we
don't experience i t as it's not "cool". I find this problematic. lV!y city govemed the East lor
thousands of years. When it separated itself from Rome, Emperor Constantine called the new
empire the Eastern Roman Empire. i\s lor Istanbul, we're talking about the ccnn·e of the East
lor more than 1 ,500 years, I ,000 years in the Byzantine Empire and almost 500 years in the
Ottoman Empire. We <tre however unable to sec the East fi·om here. This is in the end related
to the Republic and its education system. On my first visits to Beirut and .Jerusalem, I realised
the significance of religion in bringing people together, and this has had a crucial impact on
me. This was also whrn I discovered the Sufi mystic and philosopher Ibn 'Arabi, and I was
reading Crowds and Power by Cancui.
E.D.: This was prrhaps inevitable because of your interest in communities. Rituals <Jrc even­
tually embedded in religion. But it seems th<tt you look at religions from a di!Tercnt perspec­
tive, one in which it acts as a "social glue". You also hate the "other glue''.
ICE.: Yes, J hate nationalism.
E.D.: You hate some social glues and you approYc of others. This is 1·isible in your work as
well ...
K.E.: I h:we a yearning lor a world in which there is tolerance, co-existence, friendship, hos­
pitality, and the like. I may sound romamic here. You may e1·en think of the question and
answc•· section in beauty pcagants where we always poke fun at the COlllestants who say they
want "love :md peace''. But they're right! This is what we ultimately want, love, peace, and
fi-icndship. Not to live in a permanent situation of war and conri ict.
I'm impressed by how religious people arc calmer and hm•e a more relaxed world view. They
have more tolerance. They endure pain and are able to sec solutions to worldly conflicts in a
much calmer way. I didn't experience this while gmwing up. For instance when I started act­
ing, what was important was individual success. Individuals would try
to
be better, to compete
against their peers, and aim higher in order to prove themselves. One day, Professo1· Dikmen
Giirlin, who I worked with at the Istanbul Foundation for t\rt and Culture back then (and
later became my PhD professor}, said to me, "Kokcn, you sometimes-consciously or un­
consiously-stcp on people's toes to bolster your own ego, your own success. I don't approve
of it and J can't stop you. But keep on doing it. Because eventual!); people who act like this
move forward in the world." She added, "One day, you'll understand me." I've changed a lot
since then, and always mcmion Professor Gilriln's name with respect for her valuable ndvicc.
This process coincides with me gelling more and more familiar with faith. l came to think,
like Durkheim, that rhe essential difference in humans is between believers and non-believers.
E.D.: This is also related to the competitive nature of contemporary capitalism. Religions
have always focused on humbleness. This is not specific to the E<�st, it has also existed in the
former cultures of the West. Yet, in time, this approach has disappeared as lifestyles hm·c
changed drnstically. Prior to Aslmra, had you ever worked with a group that was related to
religion?
K.E.: No, 1 hadn't. J didn't e1·en think abom religion when 1 was a kid. In our social circles,
this is a common thread. We learnt :�bout religion in middle school, on the compulsory re­
ligion course which was only an hour a week. We were very confused. The teacher would
talk about God, the Creation, heaven and hell, and we would bang on his words lorevcr. \'\1e
would ask tons of questions, "Where do we go when we die? Is maslllrbating a sin'?" Some of
us would belie,·c every word he said, and we would worry about this person, saying "Oh, he
will become a pious Muslim." People who prayed were cnlled "pious l'v!uslims" with a nega­
tive connotation. The current paranoia about the ruling party AKP emerges from this specific
mindsct. We arc taught well to believe that religion is a truly bad thing.
While growing up, I started getting interested in religion. I !,'<lined certain values that the
republican ideology has refused to olfcr. ,\nd this has been very positi1·e for nJt'. I have a very
specific approach to fitith. There's a saying of Ibn '1\rnbi which I really like, "They all believed
in their own prophets and I believed in everything they believed in, all together."
I abo believe that we all l:an be prophets or philosophers, but the current system leads you to
consume ideas rather than produce them. There's a type of individu:�l who makes collages of
thoughts by dropping other rhinkcrs' names. This is also prc1·alcm in ncadcmia. By travelling
and seeing, I learned that every person has a certain capacity, he or she is valuable enough
, ,.,
to be anyone, even God. Here I usc the word "God" in a bumble and humanistic sense, like
the Sufi philosophers usc it. I try to highlight this. We can ali also say something meaningful.
Evet·y person is valuable and capable.
E. D.: This is also visible in your work. You show the social value that not-so-visible communi­
tics creme. You don't talk about it in this way but you're making it worth knowing by putting
these images out there. You say that everyone can produce value. So when we contribute to
the "larger collective". . .
K.E.: . . . t h e collective becomes stronger! The bouom line i s that Pvc become bored o f indi­
vidualism. I3ut, it's strange that what we do in the arts is closely associated with individualism.
E.D.: Here I want to mention art's potential to change society, it is a cheesy topic but I still
would like to ask you. Could your work contribute to this idea? Or would you say that you seck
to educate yourself more and this will eventually have an impact on other things and people?
ICE.: The second. First, you have to know yourself: II' r claim I'm making any changes
through my work, I would be complicit in the '·\'estern individualism I've been criticising . . .
E.D.: . . . ;:md get closer to being the detached observet:
ICE.: Yes. What I'm interested in is knowing myscl[ I don't have an>' intention of changing
people. I don't think people have the right to change others or nature. But the education we
received taught us that individuals could and should change the world. 'Vc were even taught
the vny str::mge saying, "One Turk is worth the ent.irc world." Some religious groups believe
that hutmmity can't be controlled or managed by rules that arc created by humans. Some of
us simply criticise this as Shari'a. We talk down to these groups as we think this belief is cen­
tred around rules sent by God, but [ think there's something healthy about this approach. This
is similar to why people shouldn't decide to end others' lives, I find it absurd that
person can rule other people.
a
chosen
Another thing I observed in religious people is that they accept that there is at least one power
above them. And because they're ali·aid of this, they don't take large, destructive steps. Their
relationship to nature is also very dirTcrent. Rather than changing nnture, they become part
of its flow. Going with the flow and being patient, things that individualistic people don't like.
People have changed the now of rivers, crc<ttcd clams, built canals. Think of the Suez Canal.
Moses parted the Red Sea but <tfter he crossed it, he let it now again. I don't know if l make
myself' clear. This is the type of person I'm rea ll y interested in, to live knowing that there arc
more powerful thiugs than ourselves. There arc things we can't control, and we have to accept
this-thnt's what I mean. lVIy Filipino friends in Israel arc good examples of this. [ consult
them
a
lot, they give me advice, they talk me through things ... I have learnt a lot from them.
In the socinl circle I grew up in, people would talk down to them and say, ''They're ordinary,
ignorant people, they only stay at home and do nothing." But I'm auracted by the way they
<�pproach life. And maybe this is the case because I can't live like them. I lind myself in
<1
dilemma here. On the one hand, I try to follow this very specific lifestyle. On the other hand,
I live and work in an individualistic environment. Perhaps at some point, by looking to these
dil'l'ercnt models, I will be able to lind another way for myself.
, ,.,
to be anyone, even God. Here I usc the word "God" in a bumble and humanistic sense, like
the Sufi philosophers usc it. I try to highlight this. We can ali also say something meaningful.
Evet·y person is valuable and capable.
E. D.: This is also visible in your work. You show the social value that not-so-visible communi­
tics creme. You don't talk about it in this way but you're making it worth knowing by putting
these images out there. You say that everyone can produce value. So when we contribute to
the "larger collective". . .
K.E.: . . . t h e collective becomes stronger! The bouom line i s that Pvc become bored o f indi­
vidualism. I3ut, it's strange that what we do in the arts is closely associated with individualism.
E.D.: Here I want to mention art's potential to change society, it is a cheesy topic but I still
would like to ask you. Could your work contribute to this idea? Or would you say that you seck
to educate yourself more and this will eventually have an impact on other things and people?
ICE.: The second. First, you have to know yourself: II' r claim I'm making any changes
through my work, I would be complicit in the '·\'estern individualism I've been criticising . . .
E.D.: . . . ;:md get closer to being the detached observet:
ICE.: Yes. What I'm interested in is knowing myscl[ I don't have an>' intention of changing
people. I don't think people have the right to change others or nature. But the education we
received taught us that individuals could and should change the world. 'Vc were even taught
the vny str::mge saying, "One Turk is worth the ent.irc world." Some religious groups believe
that hutmmity can't be controlled or managed by rules that arc created by humans. Some of
us simply criticise this as Shari'a. We talk down to these groups as we think this belief is cen­
tred around rules sent by God, but [ think there's something healthy about this approach. This
is similar to why people shouldn't decide to end others' lives, I find it absurd that
person can rule other people.
a
chosen
Another thing I observed in religious people is that they accept that there is at least one power
above them. And because they're ali·aid of this, they don't take large, destructive steps. Their
relationship to nature is also very dirTcrent. Rather than changing nnture, they become part
of its flow. Going with the flow and being patient, things that individualistic people don't like.
People have changed the now of rivers, crc<ttcd clams, built canals. Think of the Suez Canal.
Moses parted the Red Sea but <tfter he crossed it, he let it now again. I don't know if l make
myself' clear. This is the type of person I'm rea ll y interested in, to live knowing that there arc
more powerful thiugs than ourselves. There arc things we can't control, and we have to accept
this-thnt's what I mean. lVIy Filipino friends in Israel arc good examples of this. [ consult
them
a
lot, they give me advice, they talk me through things ... I have learnt a lot from them.
In the socinl circle I grew up in, people would talk down to them and say, ''They're ordinary,
ignorant people, they only stay at home and do nothing." But I'm auracted by the way they
<�pproach life. And maybe this is the case because I can't live like them. I lind myself in
<1
dilemma here. On the one hand, I try to follow this very specific lifestyle. On the other hand,
I live and work in an individualistic environment. Perhaps at some point, by looking to these
dil'l'ercnt models, I will be able to lind another way for myself.
E. D.: Perhaps religious faith is a way to accept the other as it is.
K.E.: Absolutely.
E.D.: And 1 think that the misunderstanding comes from making big generalisations and
seeing certain lifestyles and traditions that arc not necessarily related to religion as religion.
I<.. E.: Yes, as you said, what's essential is to accept people as they
arc.
B<' it through religion,
science, ideology, or anything elsc-I don't care how, as long as it happens! The medium is not
that important as long as the end is the silme. This is the biggest virtue, but no one around us
can do it properly. For example here in Europe there is serious xenophobia.
E.D.: This reminds me of David Harvey's critique of cultural studies departments that exist
.in many \'Vestern u n iversities today. Very briefly, he argues that the \Vcstcrncr was curious
about the East but he wasn't able to read texts like a Chinese person would read them, the
Westerner wasn't able to produce meaning by looking at the culture and ended up reading it
through his or her own lens. Being curious about the East and insisting on not understanding
it, I don't quite get it.
K.E.: Curiosity is a big topic in itscl[ To some extent, it's dangerous. I mean, is curiosity re­
ally necessary? This goes back to the discussion of representation. There's a beautiful English
saying, "Curiosity killed the cat, information made it fat." \Vith Oliver, we talked about how
Chinese people arc not very interested in other cultures. I wonder, do you think curiosity is
more prevalent in the West? Let's think about the documentary tradition in the West. There
arc thousands of films about others' lives. The starting point is mainly curiosity itscl[ But
what about the aura it creates in the audience's heads after they watch the film? Some viewers
would for inslllncc say, "I watched a very bcautiliJ I documentary, but it's a pity about these
people, look at the conditions they live in." Do documentaries intend to trigger this reaction?
i\nd what about an works? If curiosity doesn't lead to
a
comes dangerous, because it results in a patronising aura.
sort of co-cxisl\:ncc, curiosity be­
E.D.: Similar to tourism, a journey that's not internalised ...
K.E.: This is a very optimistic approach. 1 would have used biller words!
E.D.: l'or instance, in J.VEDDING, you show people collecting money fi·om the guests. We're
l:"lmiliar with this ritual since we're from Turkey. This is a type of solidarity, it means help­
ing close friends or relatives when they get maericd. Hut from a distance, it looks like a very
capitalistic act.
K.E.: Yes, I have received similar comments.
E. D.: Similarly, in As/tum, the subjects can be stigmatiscd as "fanatics" whereas you 'rc show­
ing a group that gets together and cries. Who would be afraid of a group that cries collec­
tively? Given that, how you respond to this curiosity becomes crucial. What do you think
about this?
K.E.: \.Ye can't control how the audience in Switzerland, or anywhere else, feels about the
.
work. Perhaps it's good not to control it. People can think these people arc f'lnatics, but I
don't. In order to think along these lines, they have to know me, get. to know Turkey, or to
become a little familinr with other religions. But we shouldn't have these expccmtions either,
and no one is to blame here.
E.D.: 1 was also thinking about the Arabic script in the mosque, shown somewhere in Aslmm.
\Vc both know that when the \Vcstcrn media organisations prepare a newsreel about Turkey,
they usc stereotypical images, including a woman wearing a hcaclscarf, signs in Turkish, a
couple of men with moustaches. These don't incluclc you or me, because we don't meet the
stereotypical image of Tmks. Do you feel nervous because an audience that's used to this kind
of image might sec your work in a very dillcrcnt way?
K.E.: No, not at all. It's not possible to please everyone. If an artwork intends to speak to
everyone, there must be something wrong with it. You can't preach to the audience to look
through your eyes either, this would be wrong 100. I would be happy and satisfied il" one out
of a hundred people thought or felt something about my work. Yet, sometimes there arc no
instant reactions, someone can react years after he or she sees the work...
If I may go back to our discussion about religion, 1 want to add that. in religion there arc many
unknowablcs. In science, there's one solution. In a recent article, Terry Eagleton says religion
and an, unlike science, share similarities because they both highlight nbstract concepts.
E. D.: Well, I think science has reached that point
100,
the point of not being able to claim
one solution. As you said, science is based on the \'cry modern understanding of one truth.
There's a contemporary discussion, whether we arc witnessing the dissolution of the Western
mindset that attempts to organize everything. And people arc gcnenllly unhappy.
ICE.: I'll interrupt you here. You saicl unhappiness. l'cl like to talk about Palestine ancl Israel
here. l·or me, this point is where the E�st and West truly cross each other. You know, politically
it's a chaotic situation. But when you visit the West Bank, you realise that people there arc
much happier! There's hope, although they live under occupation.
But in Israeli society, especially in secular circles, there\ dispair. And in Israel, you generally
sec more or \Vcstern culture. Gradually, hopelessness seems to be a common term to charac·
terisc the \Vestern world. It wouldn't: be an outrageous generalisation to argue that hopeless·
ness emerges in societies where faith is r�jcctcd. When we were kids, we used to n:acl that the
welfi1rc in Scanclinavian countries was something to admire. But at a social level, hopelessness
has been prevalent. They also have one or the highest suicide rates.
E.D.: Because socio-religious rituals arc not strong in Scandinavia?
K.E.: Could be. But there arc rituals beyond religion. There always have been. For example,
Filipinos in Tel Aviv have rituals at both the church nnd beauty pageants. They usc beauty
pageants as social rituals, as a social glue, essential things like bread and water. People who
don't go to church have to practice some rituals too. And this is usually done collectively.
People arc not alone, they must be soci;�l and share. l will give a talk about Binibi11ing and
A.r/mra in
a
couple or months. I w;�s rtskcd to title the talk and I decided to call it One Is a Lone(y
Number. The tide is inspired by my close friend Giil. Recently l called her when I was reeling
depressed. She carefully listened to me as I spoke. In the end I said, "J think I should [earn
how to be alone." "That's silly!" she said, "\Yc have all tried to do that and, no, it nc\'er works
that way!" Let it be religion, rituals, social events or science, anything goes as long as there's
something that binds people. And I'm interested in these "things".
E.D.: You look into diflerent social glues.
K.E.: Exactly.
E.D.: I agree with your statements that say, "you live a sterile lilc" or, "look, there arc dillcrent
ways of living and being a collecdvc," but to what extent arc you interested in making this so·
cia! glue visible and recogn isable? The works mostly focus on the situation and don't highlight
this glue we're speaking about.
K.E.: In my work, I don't want to rcitcnlle the obvious. I don't follow a scholady approach
and claim that J will make this social glue recognisable. For instance, lor me, rhythym is cru·
cia! for editing. 1 most often start with the energy of the music in the footage . Music
leads
.
me. ln WEDDING and Aslmm, collective dances and moves bind people together. I follow this
bodily rhythym as well. Fat· example, the first ten minutes of Aslwra shows Shiites beating their
chests. But ! don't necessarily highlight this as the glue that holds the community together.
E. D.: Wh<lt arc your plans in the long run? Do you have a project lined up after Asltura?
K.E.: Yes, I want to work on the gay culture in the West. Over the last five years, I've shot gay pa·
radcs all over the world with the same camera. This would be <l more personal project as I'm part
of this commun ity. But there arc things that I'm not \·cty comfortable with. For example, there's
almost a dress code, there's a striking identification, "\\'c arc here. \Ve arc queer." There's a rou­
tine or going to the designated places, etc. On the one hand, they're emphasising that they're eli!�
ferent. On the othct; they request the same social rights as the rest of society. There's <� common
belief that this is the ideal and unique lifestyle for gays. But there arc dillcrcnt gay lifestyles in the
world, this is something I'd like to inquire more into.ln the long run though, I might give up on
representation completely. I think I'm inclined to do th<lt. l'vly approach is anyhow dilli:rent in the
art world, it's more on the ethnology side. But this might also come to an end. I might leave it all
behind rnc and start writing, meaning I might sidestep visuals.
E.D.: I would understand if you wanted to start writing. 1 also ha\·c similar concerns about
visual representation. It ignores something about tht world. You work with a lot of different
people and I'm sure you have to ignore many experiences, many stories, many ideas while
you create the video. You produce a kind of knowledge. Perhaps this is what you'd like to do
through writing, disseminate what's lacking from the visuals?
K.E.: In our region, the two religions we're familiar with, Islam and Judaism, don't have
close attachments to images. However images arc very powerful in Christianity-this is
something we know from icons of .Jesus in churches in Istanbul. They also look very didactic.
E. D.: Stained glass was the school of the masses. You know, after the iconoclastic period, because
of poor mass literacy, images replaced words. The aim was education through stained glass.
K.E.: Yes, but that's an easy representation, an image system that dominates you. This doesn't
exist in Islam or Judaism. There arc no Moses icons in synagogues. Why ha\'C these sensible
people kept refusing these images? Because images arc a \'cry easy medium, or because images
can dccei\'e people easily?
E.D.: When you think about it, Western culture created systems of organisation, plll philos·
phy in books and used representation. And the East seems to say, "Who am I ;�nyway? Who
am I to represent anything?"
K.E.: Absolutely! Who am l anyway? Thank you! This is imponam, now I'm relieved. "Who
am I anyway?" You have summarised i t for me! This is a crucial statement and 'J wish we could
all say this. But a lot of people do the contrary. They say, "This is what I am, and I'm capa·
blc of doing things!" 01� "I think therefore I am!" How silly and wrong! Some people try to
change the flow of life, and others say, "\Vho am I to change the world?" The second is often
seen as passive, not interested in worldly things. But 1 don't believe that these types of people
would cause wars. I want the world to be ruled by these kind of people. No one like this would
convince the masses to follow him or her and say, "We'll kill you all!" I think this is what Plato
implies when he says that philosophers should be the governors of the state. This problem is
also present in daily life. We function around CV's, right? You exist for as much as you have
clone so f;u·. Both of us proclurc few an works. Tell me, docs this make you less of an artist?
E.D.: Sometimes I make art and just don't show it!
K.E.: Great! l envy that. This is why I wanted to have this conversation with you. But people
like us aren't that successful, you know that.
E. D.: I can't criticise global capiwlism and become a career-orientated artist at the same time.
I'm more of an idealist. And, yes, there arc problems. Problems of visibility, for instance. Hut
I don't care about it at all.
You don't makc works about individuals. You don't produce fictional stories around om; char·
actt·r. You don't bclic\'c in individual characters and you don't like them. This would be my
reading of your work. l think I fmally understand why you don't show individuals in your
videos.
As
a
reaction against modern
art,
contemporary art has highlighted that there's never one
author and there's no genius. And it has distanced itself from modern art as such. But I find i t
sad that artists arc now expected t o reiterate this over and over again. You're saying you don't
even sec yourself as an artist. This means artists still produce high art. But we should have
moved away from this point a while ago. And l don't agree with "not being successful". There
should be other ways or defining "success".
I<.. E.: I still h;wc hopes about it. I think artists who work like us arc recognised as well. But the
system is more inclined to prioritisc others. Ambitious, career-orientated people will survi"c
more easily. Having an exhibition doesn't neccssarilly mean you're a good artist. You could
build a good network, talk to the right people and then make an exhibition afierw<Jrcls. But there
arc people who reject this, which interests me a lot. But, again, the system h<Js already drawn
an image of a successful artist. Those who say, "Who am I anyway?" don't act like this though.
E.D.: Artists now have the responsibility for doing thi ngs the right way. I think artists H·om the
older generation were more free, more "bohemian". Now lltet-c's a business model. You usc
J\•lacs, you send your DVDs on time, you drink socially, but you drink less when )'OU have a lot
of work to do. . . Mlaclcn Stilinovic says in his seminal text The Praise rlj l.a;:,inrss, '�\rtists in the
\Vest arc not lazy and therefore not artists but rather producers of something." Here we can
discuss your work obsession. You have changed over time, I have also witnessed that myself.
Have you moved from an analytical point of view to a more internalised type of method?
1\. .E.: Yes, it's like finding the light switch in a dark room. Earlier, 1 would have panicked and
run left and right to find the switch, while breaking a couple of things in the room. Now, J
take safer, more confident steps and find it calmly. There arc a lot of factors here, including
age, experience, and exposure of your work. E\·ery exhibition, every artist's talk, helps you to
tnO\"e more smoothly. You also treat your work bcllcr. In the beginning, I used to work obses·
sivcly and tortut·c myself and my material, simply out of pctfonmmec anxiety. 1 produced
WEDDING in a period like this. It also affected my private life. \{y
]
partner back then didn't
like I VEDDLNG at all, because I would spend most of my free time editing it. TANKLOVE was
also produced with a lot of performance anxiety, and restrictions that .I created myself, but
when I let myself go with the flow of the performance, I realised the real essence of the work.
These arc all related to what we spoke about, the obsession of changing nature. J've always
been very influenced by Stilinovic's text but, you know, I could change my working methods
but in the end I can't be lazy. That's against my nature.
E.D.: No, I didn't mean it that way. You like what you're doing and you work because you like
it.
.
ICE.: There's a saying in the i\luslim tradition, "Work comes fi·om r,ith."
I do understand
what Stilinovic says here, your mind is so full that you have to empty it. People arc kept busy
by the system, they're always doing something, be it watching television, surfmg the Internet,
etc. There's always
a
noise in out· lives. Stilinovic however, finds work in leisure. He says he
thinks while he sleeps, and then he goes to the art gallery and sleeps in there.
E.D.: I read this laziness as an anti-capitalist strategy.
K.E.: \Veil, we always tell each other, don't we, "You work, you work . . . and then what'?!"
Bcrlin,July 2 0 1 1
0
"'
WER
. BIN
IC H
SC HON?
Gl.MAS OEN!i'. im Gespriich mit KOKEN ERGU N
EI.MAS PENIt:
In deinen Arbciten gibt es cine Gemeinsamkeit, liber die ich gcrnc mit dir sprechcn mochtc:
Es gcht um i\Icnschengruppcn, Gemcinschaftcn unci l\lenschenmassen. Es gcht urn o!Tentli­
che Zeremonien unci Rituale,jcdoch inncrhalb von Gruppen unci nicht von cinzclncn Indivi­
ducn. In Binibining PIYimiJ((I Lmul oclcr WEDDING filmst du zicmlich spczicllc Gcmcinschaftcn;
in "TilNKLO VE sind die Leutc, die im Mittclpunkt stchcn, die Einwohncr cincr d;inischcn
Klcinstadt. Bisher hast du nic cine Gcschichtc crzahlt odcr cine Arbcit gcmacht, die auf"
cincm Individuum basicrt. Was sagst dt1 zu dicscr Entschcidung?
KOKEN ERGIJN
Es gibt cine Arbcit, in dcr cs um cin Individuum gcht: Untilltd. Ich pcrformc sclber in die­
scm Video, allcrclings war ich auch dort an cincr Gruppe von lvlensch cn intercssicrt, die
mit dcm Zl:ntr<llcn Inhalt dcr Arbeit zu tun hat. Ich zog vcrschicdcne Kopftlichcr an unci
bcgann zu wcincn. Ich \"envies damit nuf die 'l:"ltsachc, class die o!Ttzicllc sakularc Politik des
tiirkischen Staats - ich ncnne d:1s konscrvativcn Silkularismus - vcrbot, an UnivcrsiUitcn und
in o!Tc ntlichcn Amt<:rn cin Kopftuch w
:
tragen . Von dicscm Verbot bctrolli:n sind zicmlich
vide Frauen. Ich sclbcr Icicle untcr dicscr .MaBnahmc zwar nicht, aber viclc andere. Dcshalb
vcrsuchte ich mich in dcrcn Lagc zu vcrsctzcn und cincn Eindruck von ihrcm alltliglichcn
Leben zu gcwinncn.
E.D.: Mit andcrcn Wortcn: Das Subjckt ist nic cin Einzclncr. Kannst. du das crlllutcrn?
K.E.: Dariibcr dcnkc ich vic! nach. Fi.ir 1nich gibt cs zwci Ancn von Lcutcn: Die cincn sind
jcnc, die sich als frcic Individucn vcrhaltcn unci ansclriickcn; sic glaubcn daran, <lass sic den
Lauf dcr Dinge vcrandcrn konncn unci sind schr ziclgerichtct.. Dazu gchorcn vicle Lctlle
aus l\·[ittclcuropa. Die andcren - viclc davon traf ich im Osten, insbesondere im bstlichcn
Mittclmccrraum - agicrcn eher als Gcmeinschaften. Als ich Untitled machtc, war ich nicht
smart gcnug, um dicsc Untcrschcidung zu machcn. Ich maehe scit siebcnJahrcn Kunst, abcr
erst in den lctztcnJahrcn wurdc mit· bcwusst, class mcin Hauptin rcresse dcr Gcmcinschaft i m
Vcrhiiltnis zum Individuum gilt. E s gibt cine Art verborgcncs ,Anlicgcn" i n mir, das i c h nicht
wirklich fnsscn kann; doch ist cs clcr Grund, wcshalb ich mid1 mit dicscn Thcmcn bcschiiftige.
kh llihlc mich rastlos, wenn ich dies in mcincn Arbcitcn nicln unrersuchcn bnn.
E.D.: Dns ist spanncnd: Du sagst, du hlittcst bci dcr Procluktion clcincr Arbciten cin Bcdi.irfnis,
ctwas, das sich Gchor versch01Cfcn will - clu verwcndcst anch manchmal das Wort Exorzismus.
kh fi·agc mich, wo du sclbcr als Subjckt in dicscr Situntion stchst. Du fokussicrsl nicht ;�uf
Individucn, du bist sclbcr priiscnt durch die Wahl des Thcmas, unci clu sprichst .immcr libcr
Gruppcn unci Gcmcinsehaftcn. Wo stehst du sclbcr als Individuum inncrh;�lb deincr Arbcit?
K.E.: kh bin Tcil clcr Arbcit. Das hnt sich vcriindcrt unci Ubcr die Zeit hinwcg verschicdcnc
Formcn angenommcn. Aber ich war auf die tine oder andere Weise immcr Tcil dcr Arbcit.
i\uch wcnn nicht jcclcs Projckt auf Thcmcn basiert, zu dcncn ich pcrsonlich cincn Bczug
habe. /, Soldier, Tlu F
lag unci Unlilled spicgcln Thcmcn wider, mit dcncn ich mich bcschaftigt
babe; ich denke, dicsc stchen wicdcrum mit Trnumata aus mcincr.Jugend in Zusammcnhan.�.
In H1EDDJNG trat ich ctwas in den Hintcrgrund, da das Video auf cine sozialc Situation fo­
kussiert. Ganz iihnlieh befragt 'lilNI>LOVE cine sozialc Bcsondcrhcit, die mit dcr politischcn
Vcrgangenhcit dcr Ti.irkci 7.11 tun hat; glcichzcitig gcht cs jcdoch auch um pcrsi)nlichc Frngcn,
die ich mir stcllc. Eigentlich war cs cine Rcaktion auf die vcrcinfachtc Aussagc, die ich immcr
wicdcr im Ausland zu huren bckommc: ,\Vir sind in cincr dcmokratischcn Gcscllschaft unci
du nicht." lch machtc TANI.LOVE, um
w
sagcn: ,Schaut mal, das konmc auch curh passic­
rcn!" Nimmt man Binibining, so bin ich wic die Lcutc dort ebcnfalls ein Immigrant, cler wcit
wcg von seiner 1-leim::n lcbt und sic vermisst.
E. D.: \Vic sieht cs bei Aslwm aus?
K.E.: lch wiirdc nicht sagcn, class ich mit den Lcutcn aus Aslwm pcrsonlich vicl gcmcinsam
hahc.
E. D.: lch dcnkc, dcinc Arbcit hat in den lctzrcn Jahrcn cincn klarcren Fokus bckommen,
indcm c\u cin artikulicrteres, genaucr dcfinicrtcs Interesse an Gruppcn, Gcmcinschaften unci
ihn.:n Ritualen zdgst. Ist das korrckt?
ICE.: Ja, wcnn ich hcutc zurllckblickc, cmwickcltc sich cl::1s allcs schr natllrlich. lch glaubc,
mcin Interesse ::In Gcmcinschaftcn cntwickcltc sich, ohnc class ich cs bcmerktc. lch habc das
1illcnt, schr cinfach mit Lcutcn ins Gcspriich zu kommcn und sic wsammcnzubringcn. Das
ist anch der stlirkstc Tcil mciner kiinstlcrischen Praxis: Lcutc zusammenbringen und etw::1s
mit ihnen crlcben. lch offnc mich dabci auch selbcr; die Lcutc, mit dcnen ich arbcitc, crfah­
rcn zicmlich vic! Persiinlichcs von mir. lch bin nicht schcu und vcrbcrge kaum etwas. Bci dcr
schiitischcn Gcmcinschaft von As/tum war es ctwas andcrs, dcnn mit ihncn konntc ich nicht
so kommunizicrcn wic ctw:l mit der philippinischcn Gemcinschnfl aus Binibining. \Viihrcnd
cines Monms traf ich die schiitischc Gruppc in dcr Mosrhcc, wohntc den Proben bci unci
filmtc, abcr clnnach vcrlicl3 ich ihr Quartier unci kchrtc in mcin cigcncs Leben zuriick. \Vir
sprachcn nicht vicl ilber pcrsonliche Dingc. Nur nach dcm Tag dcr Aschma lucien sic mich
zum Abcndcssen bci sich zuh::1usc cin. \Vir lcrntcn uns bcsscr kcnncn und sprachen obcr viclc
Dingc, abcr nalllrlich auch nicht iibcr allcs.
E.D.: In JJinibining kommt die Gcmcinschafr chcr zum Vcrgnllgcn zus:unmcn, n�\mlich
zu
cincm Schonhcitswcubewcrb. Glcichzcitig wisscn wir, class all dicsc Lcutc crnstlmfte Prob­
lcmc in ihrcrn Alltag habcn. Bci clcr Gcmcinschaft von Ashum ist cs umgckchrt, sic habcn
cin Anlicgcn bci ihrcr Zus:lmmenkunft, d:1s
man
in seiner Ernsthaftigkcit nicht mit cincm
Schonhcitswcubcwcrb vcrglcichcn kann. Hat vicllcicht dicser Untcrschied dein jcweiliges
Kommunikationsvcrhaltcn bceinflusst?
K.E.: .Ja, a\lerclings. Abcr ich bin mir sichc1; class sich mcin Austausch mit den Leutcn a us
Aslmm i.ibcr die Zeit hinwcg vc1�indcrn wird. lch mochtc mcin Vcrhiiltnis zu ihncn in den
kommcnden.Jahren 11nbcdingt vcrticfcn.
E.D.: Gibt cs Projcktc, an dcncn du gcrnc wcitcrgcarbcitct hi\tlcst?
ICE.: Eigentlich arbcite ich an all mcincn Projcktcn wcitcr. \Venn ich mit dcm Filmcn fcrtig
bin, ist der i\ustausch mit cincr Gcmeinschaft deshalb nicht zu Endc. lch bcsuchc sic sehr
oft; und wcnn ich sic nicht hcsuchcn kann, kommuniziercn wir iibcr Facebook. Unter den
Filipinos nutzt nur cine cinzigc Person - James Dandan, dcr transscxucllc Organisator des
Schonhcitswcl lbewcrbs - Faccbook nicht, clcshalb rclefonicrcn wir cinmal im lvional. Wcil.
ich ncugicrig bin, wic es ihm gcht, rufc ich ihn an. Wir sind Vertrautc. Wir konncn stunden·
lang tclcfonicren und tratschcn. Kurzlich sagle cr am Tclefon, sobald cr zu sprcchcn bcgann:
,i'dein Freund, me in Freund, cs gibt ein Problem." Sein Visum fur Israel wi.irde bald ablaufen:
,Ich mochtc nicht auf die Philippincn zuriick: Vielleicht kann ich in die Tlirkci kommen;
ich habc gehort, class man die Transvestiten dart gut behandclt." Ich so:tgte, die Situation in
der Tiirkci sci in Ordnung, abcr nicl11 wirklich groflartig, worauf cr amwortctc: ,Okay, dann
kommc ich nach Deutschland. Du kannst mir cincn job suchcn, wcnn ich ankommc." Ich
crwidertc, class das nuch nicht schr cinfach scin wiirdc und cr cbcnlalls ein Visum briiuchtc.
Unci als ich meinc philippinischcn Freundc dann lctztcn l'>'lonat in Israel bcsuchtc, ricfcn mich
vide an unci hattcn ahnliche Anfragen. Das machtc mich schr traurig, doch glcichzcitig ftihltc
ich cincu cigcnartigcn Stolz Ubcr clas Vcrtrauen, das sich i.ibcr clicjahre hinwcg zwischen uns
gchildct hattc.
lVIittlcrwcilc ist cs drei Jahre her, scitdcm ich TAN/CLOVE bcendct habc. Ich gche Jahr fur
Jahr in das Dorf 'lllrlick, bcsuchc die Einwohncr sowic die Spu1·cn, die dcr Panzer im Stadt·
zcntrum hintcrlicfl; dann essen wir gcmcinsam zu Abend. Dicsesjahr konntc ich zum crsten
Mat nicht gchcn und ich sagtc mir: .,Ich bcginne mich Iangsam zu vcrzcttcln, dcnn ich habc
mit immcr mchr Lcutcn aus immcr mchr .Projcktcn zu tun. leh kann das bald nicht mchr
bcwiiI tigcn."
l'vfanchmal kehrc ich auch zu I'rojckt.cn zurlick odcr denkc tiber sic nach. l'rlihcre Arbeitcn
wic /, Solditr, Th� Fla,g oclcr WEDDING cntwickcln sich noch in mcincm Blog wcitcr, ich llihrc
ihn immcr wieder nach. 1 VEDDING war voycuristischcr als andere Projcktc. Nach clcm Fil­
men ging ich cinfach; mcin Vcrhiihnis wr Gcmcinschaft war damals noch andcrs. jct7..t wird
die Arbcit libcrall in Berlin gczcigt unci ich vcrsuche mit mcincr clamaligcn Crew die Lctllc
von den Hochzcitcn wicclcrzulindcn. lch miichtc sic cinlaclcn, wn sich den Film anzuschauen
odcr ihncn cine Kopic clavon schicken .
.E. D.: Hilltst du das fiir cincn cthischen Anspruch dcincs Zugangs, dcr sich iibcr die Zeit hin­
wcg cntwickclt hat?
K.E.: .Ja, so ist cs. \Venn ich nicht cine klarc Erlaubnis von den Lelllen habc, sic zu fit men,
dann vcrunsichcrt mieh das cnorm. Hcute ist es for mich schr vicl schwierigcr gcworden,
voycuristischc Arbcitcn zu machcn, wcil sich dicsc Ethik in dcr Tat so cmwickelt hat. Gcnnu
dcshalb mochtc ich die Lcutc aus dcm Video ausfindig machen und sagcn: ,lch hahc vor cin
pamJahrcn dicscs Video gcmacht, jctzt mochtc ich cs gcrnc mit dir tcilcn."
Adem, cin Freund a us cler Cafcri-Gcmcinschaft dcr Schiitcn, die ich in Aslwra filmtc, rncintc
neulich, dass cr mcinc Ausstellung in Winterthur anschaucn mochtc. Hiittc er etas friihcr gc·
sagt, so wiire ich nervus gcwordcn unci hiiltc mir den Kopf zcrbrochcn, ob cr cs mogen wiirde
odcr nicht. Odc1; was wahl die Leiter der Gcmcinschaft clazu sagen \\'iirdcn. Abcr hcute fmdc
ich, class cs nicht so wichtig ist, ob sic das Resultat mogTn. Das l'rojckt hat cine andere Ebcnc
errcicht; sic wurdcn Zcugc davon, wic vicl ich in das Projckt invcsticrtc, dcshalb wcrdcn sic cs
am Enclc aucb wcrtscbiitzcn, ohnc darlibcr asthctisch zu urtcilcn.
E. D.: \Viirc Asltura clcinc crstc Arbcit, so kunntcn \Vir dcinc Entwicklung insgesamt wohl nicht
so lcsen. Dcinc cthisehcn D bcrlcgun.�en wiircn nicht so sichtbat; odcr?
K.E.: \>Vas clu sagst, klingt cin bisschcn wie die Umkchrung dcr Schopfungsgeschichtc. Es impli­
ziert, class cs sich notwcndigerwcisc so cmwickcln musstc. So wi.irde ich csjccloch nicht schcn.
E.D.: Lass cs mich crklarcn: lch wiirc bcsorgt tiber die Rcpriiscntation cines rcligioscn Rituals
als solchcm. Abcr dcin Vcrhliltnis zu den Lcutcn, die clu lihnst, bcruhigt mich. Es Libcrzcugt
mich. lch bin auch aus Ist;�nbul und weif3 um die clclibtc Natur solcher Dingc, dcsh<�lb thc­
matisicrc ich cs. Wcr spricht fiir wen? Und wic spricht m;�n dariibcr? Ansonstcn hast du
Recht, wir konncn· die Entwicklung nicht einfach umkehrcn. iV[ich intcrcssiert ebcnlillls, wie
clu clich inncrhalb der tiirkischen Kunstszcnc positionicrst?
I<.. E.: Eigcntlich gar nicht. Ich wei{3 nicht m;�l, ob ich cs solltc. Es intercssicrl mich nicht schr.
Um ehrlich zu scin, intcrcssicrr cs mich nicht cinmal, ubcr diesc Fragc nachzudenkcn. Ich
arbcitc cinfach wcitcr. Ich li·agc mich jcdoch, wic schr cin Kiinstlcr tiber andere Kiinstlcr
Bcscheid wisscn muss unci wic wichtig cs ist, 'Vcrkc andcrcr Kiinstlcr anzuschaucn.
E. D.: Vicllcicht hat cs dam it zu tun, wic du cinst mit deiner cigcnen kiinstlcrischcn Auscinan­
dcrsetzung begonncn hast. Kiinstler; die auf cincr Kunstschule warcn, dcnken wohl cin wcnig
anclcrs. Du hast clich letztcndlich cntschicclcn Kunst zn machcn, wei! dn kein Schauspidcr
wcrdcn wolltcst. Viclleicht bist du dcshalb nicht ;�n andcren Kiinstlcrn und ihrcr Arbcit in­
tcressicrt?
ICE.: Es stirnmt, ich hattc
zu
lleginn nicht die Absicht Filmc zu m;�chcn. Abcr ich dcnkc,
das ist keirH: gute Antwort auf clcinc Fragc. Ich kcnne Klinstlcr, die cine Kunstausbildung
gcrnaeht habcn. Babe ich nicht Uhnlichc Angste wic sic? Natlirlieh hab ich die!Jcdcr Klinstlcr
will Ancrkcnnung. Was mich jedoch nicht bcschiiftigt , ist die Positionicnrng auf eincr nationa­
lcn Ebcne, odcr sogar cincr lokalcn wic ctwa inncrhalb cincr Stadt wic Istanbul oclcr Berlin.
Eigcntlich kcin Wunder, dcnn ich babe noch inrmcr crhcblichc i\-!Ohc mit dcm Nationalstaat
unci jcgliehcr Form von nationnlcr Rcpriiscntation. Das hcif3t nieht, class ich nicht cine gcwissc
Sch nsucht hlittc. Zurn Beispiel Iiebe ieh bier in Berlin llirkischcs Essen und wiirdc wornoglich
sagcn: ,Die Tiirkci hat sich wirklich gut entwickclt!" Aber ich fohlc dies nicht als tUrkischer
Blirgcr, oder als Burger irgcndeincs andcrcn Landes. Es hat ehcr damit zu tlln, class ich im
Ausland lcbc.
Aul3crdern Iiebe ich zu rciscn. Dt.•r wichtigstc Grund, wcshalb ich heme in Berlin lebc, war,
class ich sciL mcincr Kinclhcit immcr in cincr internmionalcn Stadt Ieben wullte. Den eincn
Abend eincn Freund aus Argentinien 1.um Abcndcsscn habcn, den andcren cinen Freund
aus Israel, unci noeh cincn andcrcn cinen Freund aus dem Libanon. Dann wiirden aile zu­
samrncnkommcn unci an cincm Tisch sitzcn und gemeins;�m essen. Ich miichtc einfach nicht
irnmcr in dcrsclbcn Umgebung scin.
E. D.: Dcshalb arbcitcst du vicllcicht in dcincn Arbcitcn mit vcrschicdcncn Gemcinschaflcn.
K.E.:Ja, das kann gut sein.
E.D.: Wahrcncl dciner Kindhcit war Istanbul in der Tat vie! \venigcr multikulturcll.
K.E.: Es ist jctzt wahl bcssc1; ;�ber cin wirklichcr Schmelzticgcl ist die Stadt noch immcr
nicht. Es ist niehL wic das Osrnanischc Reich,
wo
aile hin wollten . Es gibt schr vic! Verkehr in
Istanbul, abcr cs ist kcinc \Veltstadt. Natiirlich hat dies mit der AuOosung des Rcichs und dern
Aulbau des Nationalstaatcs zu tun, abcr dies sind nicht die cinzigcn Gri.indc. Wie auch immcr,
ich findc cs nicht gut, class Istanbul quasi ,tlirkifizicrt" wurdc und seine intcrnation<�le Idcn-
"'
tittil hinter sich licl3. Dcshalb ranntc ich davon, nach London. Damals licbtc ich die wcstlichc
Literatur, zum Tcil aus cincm person lichen Interesse, zum Teil wegcn
meincr Ausbildung am
Gymnasium. lch bcncidctc London, so wic cs bci Dickens gcschilclcrt wird. I-Icutc wOrdc ich
clas bcstimmt anders lcscn. Aber wic du wciBt, mochtc jcdcr Istanbulcr wcnigstcns cinmal in
scincm Leben dicser Stadt cntfliehcn; clu cbcnfalls.
E.D.:
Du sagst, du haucst in dcincrjugcnd die Schnsucht nach eincr kosmopolitischen Stadt.
kh finclc cs wichtig festzuhilltcn, class dcinc Arbeitcn nicht nur von der .'filrkci hilndcln.
Du arbeitest tiber Gcmcinschaftcn und Lcbcnsstilc vcrschicclcncr lmmigranten in viekn vcr­
schicdcncn L1indcrn. In Bini/Jining sprichst du Englisch, w!ihrcncl clu i n A.rl111m auf Ttirkisch
kommunizierst. In TA.NKLOVE bcstcht das Publikum aus Dlincn. Ich mi.ichtc die
Bcziehung
zwischen dcincr Arbcit unci den Orten, wo du warst, ctwas gcnaucr bclcuchtcn. Viclleicht
cmschcidcn sich die Lcutc bcwusst, wcit weg von dcm On zu Ieben, wohcr ihn: ldentitlit
stammt. Sic wandcrn aus wcgcn dcr Problemc mit ihrcr cigencn Gcmcinscha!l odcr mit dem
Staat. Dcin Interesse gilt kleincn Gruppcn; :tv1inderhcitcn, Immigrantcn, die immcr im Aus­
land Ieben. Du warst oft im J\littlcrcn Osten, hast jcdoch nic cine Arbeit tiber die Bcsctzung
gemacht. Sag mir ctwas iiber dcinen Bczug w den Orten, die dich i ntcrcssicrcn.
ICE.:
lch
rcnnc auch davon. Fur rnich hat Davonrcnncn ctwas mit cincr Art Hasslicbe zu tun.
\Vir vcrlasscn rnanchmal cinen Ort, weil wir ihn so sehr hasscn, abcr realisiercn cli!nn, class wir
ihn cigcntlich wahnsinnig lichen. Die Liebe zu cincm Land, das man aus I-Iass aufgab, wird
mit dcr Distanz grol3ci: Das ging mir ganz lihnlich. AIs ich hcrumrcistc, lcrntc ich me inc cigc­
nc Kultur besscr schlitzcn. Auch \vcnn ich damals in 'Vestcuropa unci den Vereinigtcn Staaten
lebtc, bcgann ich mich liir die Nachbarn der Tiirkci zu intcressicrcn. Also nicht die Nachbarn
im Sinne von angrenzenclcn Liindcrn, sonclcrn im Sinnc von vcrschicdcncn Kulturen, die im
Osrnanischcn Reich kocxisticrten. Dcshalb ging ich zum Beispiel h�iufig nach Israel, l'all\stina
unci in den Libanon. Es gibt vicle A hnlichkcitcn zwischen ihrcr und unserer Kultur, sci es das
Essen, die
Eifcrsucht
oder clcr Klntseh. Ich glaube, einer cler GJ·Lindc, wcshalb das Reich tiber
mchrerc .Jnhrhundcnc existicrtc, war, class die vcrschiedcnen Kulturen sich emotional schr
lihnlich warcn. So cine Verbindung findct man bei Oberscckolonicn, etwa dem chcmaligcn
hritisehcn Reich, nicht.
Ich bin schr angctan vom ustliehcn Mittelmeerraum. Bei den V
l Icnschcn dort fHhlc ich mich
wie dner von ihnen unci werdc iluch so behandclt. In Westcuropa war das nic so. Vicllcicht
wurdc ich dadurch inspiricrt. Um ehrlich zu scin, inspiricrt mich auch dcr Konflikt. Einc rci­
chc unci stabile Gesellsthaft wie ctwa in Deutschland, wo tiber cine auf dcm Dach vcrgcssenc
Katzc in den Mcdien bcrichtct wird, inspiriert mich bum. Abcr Berlin ist cin Ort, an clcm
ich mich
nuf me inc Arbcit konzcntricren kann. Dcshalb filme ich mcinc Videos in dcr Ttirkei
oder andcrcn Uindcrn unci schncidc sic clann an eincm ruhigcn Ort wic Deutschland.
Mit
ilndcrcn Wortcn, Berlin ist flir mich cin bisschen wic der Lesesaal eincr Bibliothek.
Eincs Tagcs besuchte mieh ein Freund aus Israel und mcintc ziigcrnd: ,Ich muchte Tel Aviv
verlassen unci nach New York gchcn. Was findest du?" lch antwortcte: ,Du konntcst dich dn­
mn gewohncn, so wic ich mich hier auch daran gewohnt habc." .Er mcintc: ,Du konntcst an
jeclcm Ort auf dcr Welt Ieben unci dich claran gcwuhnen unci glcichzeitig dallir sorgcn, class
sich die Lcutc auch an dich gewuhncn." \Vic ich schon sagtc, ich bin cin Kommunikations­
talcnt. Das ist meinc cigcntliehe kiinstlerische Praxis, abcr kann man dazu Kunst sagcn? Ieh
cigentlich ist cs mir auch cgal. Du li·agtesl mich, wie ich mich inncrhalb dcr
tUrkischcn Kunstszene positionierc. \Venn du diesel be fmgc Ciir Berlin s tellen wtirdest, konntc
weifl cs nicht unci
ich dir cbcnso wcnig cine Antwort daraur gcbcn. Das �cigt vicllcicht, class cs mich cinfach
nicht intcressiert. Abcr ich s<�ge dies niclu, wcil mich die Kunsts�cnc irgendwie verlctzt hlittc.
Manchc sagcn, sic gingcn nic an Vernissagcn, abcr so mcine irh das nieht. Nculich an der .Er­
offnung von Hiiscyin Bahri Alptckins J\usstcllung bci SALT i n lstanbul sah ich cin Statement
an der Wand, das mich sehr rlihrte, ja zum Wcincn brachtc: ,lch Iiebe die Kunst, ich hassc
die Kiinsllcr." Das ist cine schonc Rcdcwendung, sic hat Tiefe. Hass ist �war cin starkes Wort,
aber· auch schr ,·iclschiehtig. I-ltiseyin mcintc cs schr ernst haft und nieht rcaktionllr; ich wciB
das, weil ich ihn kcnnc. Ich bcvorzugc cs, zucrst die Person des Kiinstlcrs zu kcnncn unci dann
seine Arhcit anzuschaucn.
E.D.: Genau das wolhe ich fragcn: \Vic widuig ist rtir dich die Person des Kiinstlcrs?
K.E.: Schr wicht.ig. lch mag, wcnn der Betrachter mcincr Arbeiten ctwas tiber meinc Person
hcrausfindcn kann.
E. D.: Di"ls ist nun die Arllwon auf cine mcincr vorhcrigcn Fmgen, in der cs um deinc Pr;isenz
in dcinen Arbciten ging.
K.E.: lch bin immer prilscnt in mcincn Arbcitcn, abcr ich mochtc mich nicht in den Vordcr­
grund spiclcn. Alfred Hitchcock tauchte immer in seincn Filmen nul: auch David Lynch spielt
gcrnc cincn klcincn Part; bci vnn Gogh wlircn wicdcrum die Pinsclstriehc das Zcichen seiner
Autorenschali. Ich habc nicht das Zicl, mich sichtbar zu machcn, doeh mochtc ich in meincr
Arb<:it auf cine chcr abstraktc An unci Weise prtiscnt scin. Meine Prnsenz bczieht sieh ehcr
darauf, mit den Protagonisten in den filmcn vicl Zeit zu vcrbringen; tiber sic unci mit ihncn
nachwdcnken, unci vor allcm ehrlich zu scin.
E.D.: Deinc Arbcitcn kllnncn schr inspiricrcnd ftir LetHe sein, die cin ,stcrilcs" Leben llihren.
Also J\lcnschcn, die von ihrcsglcichcn umgcbcn sind. Du zcigst Gruppcn von Mcnschcn, die
man normalcnvcisc kaum jc kenncnlcrnt. Aslwm, WEDDING unci Binibining zcigcn unbckann­
te Gemcinschi1ftcn, die dcrn Bctrachtcr untcr Umstiindcn zcigcn, wic stcril scin cigcncs Leben
ist. Wordcst du dcm beipnichtcn?
ICE.: Ja, manchmal mochtc ieh, class mcinc Arbeit cin Schlag ins Gcsicht ist. Ich bin
ehrlich gcsagt manchmal ctwas boshaft. In meincr Arbcit cnthlilk ich deshi1lb, was ich in
mcincm Privatlcben oftmals vcrbcrgc. In uJNJ.:LOVE licB ich cincn Panzer durch dilnischc
Straflen ri"lhrcn, wcil ich so wiitcnd auf die Europacr unci Nordamcriknncr wi"lr. lch wollre
ihnen zu verst<'ltcn gcbcn, class ihre priitcntiosc Art, uns ilbcr Dcmokratic zu bclchrcn,
dcplatzicrt ist.
Im Kiasma in Helsinki arbcitctc ich 2003 an cincm Projekt, das J.lmo hieO, gcmcinsam
mit dean Platform Garanti Contemporary Art Center aus Istanbul. Wir nahmcn Stimmcn,
Gcspriichc unci Alltagsgcr:luschc in den Bliros von Garnnti auf unci vcrwcndetcn sic in ei­
ncr Klanginstallation in Helsinki. Vasil" Konun, dcr Dircktor
\"Oil
Garanti, \'Crwc nclctc die
'Norte ,cinatmen" unci ,nusatmen" dafi.ir. Also das Einatmen von Gcr;iuschcn in Istanbul
und ihr Ausatmen in 1-ldsinki. Im Gcgcnsalz dazu hattc ich immer das Won ,kotzen" im
Kopf. Ich hattc damals cine groBc Wut i"luf die stcrilen Beclingungcn in Europn unci die
daraus rcsulticrcndc Hochnlisigkcit uns gcgcniibcr. lch wolltc s<1gcn: ,Schaut, cs gibt vcr­
schicdcne Wel ten." lch arbciLc mit Filipinos in Israel, cine Gruppc, die von den mcistcn
lsrnclis nicht cinmal wahrgcnommcn wird, odcr mit schiitischcn 1VI indcrhcitcn, von dcncn
die mcistcn Istanbulcr nichts wisscn. Es ist iihnlich
zu
dcm, was unscre GroBmllttcr gcsagt
hi\ttcn: ,Schau, mcin Kind, es gibt so viclc vcrschicdcne Leben!" Das mcichtc ich zcigcn.
E.D.: lch mtichtc vcrdcutlichcn, wcshalb ich nach dciner Position inncrhalb dcr Tlirkci gc­
rragt habc. r->Iich intcrcssicrcn dcinc Gedanken zu Exotisicrung unci Identitlitspolitik. Zum
Beispiel bci der Rczcption dcincr Arbeit Unlitlui bcstcht cine groBe Gcf�lln· von Exotisicrung.
Es ist clcshalb gut, class du dich in vcrschicdencn intcrnationalcn Kontcxtcn bcwcgst, und
nicht ausschlicBiich dem liirkischcn.
K.E.: Lass mich die forage umdrehen: Wie wlirdcsl du mich denn in dcr TUrkei positionicrcn?
E. D.: Nun, ich wollte chcr cincn Kommcntar mach en, nls cine Frage stcllcn. Es ist gut, deinc
Arbcit nicht nur in eincm tOrkischcn Kontcxt zu betrachtcn;
cs
vcrschaiTt ihr cincn grol3cren
und flcxiblcrcn Rnum, dcr mchr vcrschicdcnc Lcsartcn crlaubt. Nichtsdcstotrotz schcn wir
viclc Arbcitcn, die nicht tiber cine Exotisicrung hinausgchcn. Ich hin dcr Meinung, bci dir
ist cs andcrs.
K.E.: Also ich kann mich sclbcr nicht cxotisicrcn, dcnn ich Iinde mich nicht intcrcssa nt.
E.D.: lch brachtc dies auf; wcil wir h;iufig mit cincm allgemeinen Problem konfronticn siiiCI.
lch ncnnc cs falschc Bcschcidcnhcil. Es gcht dnrum, class sich dcr Westen in dcr Diskussion
oft als uns glcichwcrtig gcbicn, abcr hcirnlich noch immcr auf uns hcrabschaut. Daraus crgibt
sich cine Exotisicrung dcr 1\rbcit, oclcr cin Grund fur cine Selbstcxotisicrung. Ich will wisscn,
wic du darUber dcnkst.
[n dcincn filmcn bist du dcr Kamcrnmann, du schncidcst sclbcr, produzicrst und iibcrsctzt
sic. Was w;irst du am liebstcn, wcnn clu dich fur cines dm·on cntschcidcn miisstcst? Gibt cs
iibcrhaupt cine solchc Position? WLirclest du dich sclbcr cincn Obcrsctzcr, Bcobachter, Atnor
ncnncn? ·
IC E.: Ich wiirdc cs ,dazugchorigcr 13cobachter" ncnnen. Ich konntc auch ,Tcilnchmcr" sa­
gcn, doch dns ist ja cigcntlich gar nicht moglich. Ich bin kein Schiitc, kcin Filipino, ebcnso
wcnig cin Tlirkc, dcr in Dcu tschlnnd gcboren und nufgcwachscn ist. Ich bin cinfach cin Gast,
dcr von cincm Gastgcbcr cmpfnngen wire!.
Die Gruppcn, fUr die ich mich intcrcssicrc, mogcn cs chcr wcniger, Gcschichtcn
'l.ll
crzlihlcn
odcr Filmc zu drehcn und sic zu vcrkaufcn; in mcincr Kuhur ist. cs das Gcgcntcil, also bin ich
cine Art Vcrmittlcr. Ich wt\rdc mich nicht als Atllot· odcr filmcmachcr bczcichncn, ja nicht
cinmal als Kiinstlcr.
E. D.: Vicllcicht cntspricht dies deiner Definition von Kunst?
K.E.: Hi to Steyer! formulicrtc cs cinmal iihnlich und nannlc mich cincn ,,Botschaficr". Dam it
bin ich cinverstandcn. Es ist hilfi·eich, andere Lcutc tiber die cigcne Arbcit sprcchcn zu lassen;
cs hilft, die cigcnc klinstlcrischc Prnxis bcsscr zu vcrstchcn.
E. D.: An deincr Arbcil ist bcmcrkcnswcrt, class du Minorit1\tcn oclcr Gcmcinschaftcn zcigst,
Obcr die kaum je bcrichtct wire!. Auf dcr cinen Scitc bcstcht die Gcfuhr cincr cthnischcn
Dokumcntation, cincr Exotisicrung; auf dcr andcrcn Scitc ist dcinc Arbcit in cincm positivcn
Sinnc !aut. Du bcnutzt dokumcntarischc Tcchnikcn, zum Beispiel lcbst du mit den Gcmcin­
schal.icn ja wirklich als ,clazugchorigcr Bcobachtcr" wsammcn, unci du bcnutzt cine Hand­
kamcra ohnc Stativ. \Vic vcrhiilt sich clcinc Arbcit wr Dokumcntation? Inwicfcrn bist du die
,Stimmc dcr anclcrcn"?
K.E.: Ich haltc mcinc Arbcit nicht l\.ir Dokumcntationcn, wcnnglcich cs gcwissc Ahnlich­
kcitcn gibt. Ich wcirl, dass cs andere Kiinsllcr gibt, die ahnlich arbcitcn wic ich, abcr ich
habc kcincn grorlcn Orang oclcr Ncugicr ihn: Arbcitcn zu schcn. Hinsichtlieh Tcchnik unci
Methode kummcrc ich mich am mcistcn um die Einhcit zwischen mir unci den Lcuten, mit
dcncn ich arbeitc. Ich schc die Arbeiten nicht cinfach als Filmc. Mit dcr Zeit bcgann ich zu
vcrstchcn, class mcinc Projcktc aueh Wcrkzcugc sind, um mich sclbcr zu vcrstchcn.
E. D.: Odcr das Gegcntcil.
I<... E.: Was mcinst du?
E.D.: Sagen wil� du bist dcr Botschaftcr, dcr cine Botschalt zum D bcrbringcn findct. Die Bot·
schaft ist sowohl filr die Filmprotagonisten als auch das Publikum gedacht. Du bilfst ihncn,
ctwas iibcr sich sclbcr zu crfahrcn. Unci du \'CrschaOSt uns die i\Ioglichkcit, dicsc Gcmcin­
schaftcn kcnncnzulcrncn. Das solltcst du nicht untcrschiltzcn.
K.E.: Das stimmt, abcr ich sclbcr wilrdc zugcrn, cin solchcs Statement Uber mich zu machcn.
lch mochte beschcidcn blcibcn, andcrnfalls hurt cs sich schr cgoistisch an.
E.. D.: Du hast die Aufilahrncn zu Binibiuing in cincr An unci Weise geschnillcn, class sic dem
Geschmack dcr philippinischcn Frauen cntspricht. Du hast dich mil ihncn ausgctauscht unci
dich von ihncn inspiricren lassen. Vicllcicht untcrschcidct sich dcinc Arbcit vom ublichcn
Dokumcntationsformat dadurch, class du bci dcr Postproduktion dcr Rcalit!lt des Gcfilmten
trcu blcibst. So blcibt ihrc RcaliUlt in dcr fcrtigcn Arbcit bcssct· crhaltcn.
K.E.: Scit kurzcm bin ich schr an unbcarbcitctem Material intcrcssicrt. Das bcgann mit dcr
Recherche in den Archiven \'On B'Tsdrm in jerusalem. Ich war ganz aufgcrcgt, als ich crfuhr,
class das Projckt von Dokumentarfilmcrn initiiert wurdc. Orlcnbat· hortcn sic sclbcr auf
rilmen unci grlindctcn clns Projckt B'Tsrlem.
w
E. D.: Echt? Das ist bccindruckcnd.
K.E.: Ja, dcr Grtindcr Oren Yakabo1·ic unci der gcgcnwilrtigc Dircktor Yom· G ross 1varcn
bcide Dokumcntarfilmer. Sie crziihhcn mir, class sic an eincm gcwisscn Punkt ihrc Arbcit
nicht mchr als bcdeutungsvol l odcr wirksam cmpfanden und dcshalb mit B'Tselem beganncn.
Jhr Videoprojckt S'l10oli11g Bark war fiir mich schr inspiriercnd. Das ist cin ncucr Zugang zum
Dokumcntarischcn, in dem cs eigentlich kcincn Autor gibt. Das ist cin scht· wichtigcs Projckt,
sowohl fiir die Welt als auch fur die Gcmcinschaficn an dicscm Ort.
E.D.: Hast du jcmals cine vcrstccktc Kamcra bcnutzt, um in ciner Gcmcinschaft zu filmcn?
K.E.: r\uf gar kcincn Fall. Das Iinde ich das Allcrlctztc. Ich bcfrcundc mich wcrst mit dcr
Gcmcinschaf't unci !ilmc in dicscr Zeit nic. Wcnn die Zeit rcif ist, fragc ich um Erlaubnis.
Wcnn mir dicsc ertcilt win!, bcginnc ich
zu
lilmcn. Dabci gchc ich Iangsam vor, ich vcrsuchc
die Grcnzcn zwischen mir unci dcr Gcmeinschaft zu rcspcktieren. \Venn sic cs nicht crlau­
ben, filmc ich gar nicht. Klinstlcr, die nicht nach Erlaubnis fJ·agcn, machcn mich wOtcnd.
Ich crinncrc mich an Mark Boulous' Film tiber die O lfcldcr am Nigcnlclta an dcr lctzten
llcrlin Bicnnalc. Es gab cine Szenc, in wdchcr dcr Kamcramann - odcr dcr Ktinstlc1; ich
wcirl nicht gcnau, wcr hinter dcr Kamcra war - darauf hestand wcitcrzulilmcn, obwohl der
Nigcriancr cindcutig nicht gcfilmt wcrdcn wolltc. Ich konntc das nicht aushaltcn und musstc
davonrcnncn. Ich bckam Giinschaut. Ganz lihnlich ging Yael Bartana mit ihrcr Kamera in
cine orthodoxc jUdischc Nachbarschaft wlihrcnd dcr Purim-Fcicrlichkeitcn und maehte dort
Auli1ahmcn fiir ihrcn Film. Es war darin dann cindcutig
w
schen, class die Ktinstlcrin nicht
in dicse Nachbarschaft gchi)rtc unci class die Anwohncr iibcrhaupt nicht gliicklich Ober ihre
Anwcscnhcit warcn.
E.D.: Als die crste Version von Binibining in dcr Ausstcllung Overtime Work gc�.cigt wurdc, dach­
te ich zum erstcn Mal an cinco Aspckt dcincr Arbcit, den wir noch nicht diskuticrl haben:
Arbcitsbcdingungcn. In dcr Arbcit zcigst du cincn Schonhcitswcl\bcwcrb und wir schcn Leu­
tc, die sich vcrgniigcn; abcr in Realitiil sind ihrc Arbcitsbedingungen allcs andere als gut.
\•Var das dcr Grund, wcshalb du in dcr dm·auf folgcndcn Version die Interviews intcgricrtcst?
K.E.: Gcnau, cine zwcitc Stimmc war wichtig. Es ist cine schr komplizicrtc Situation. Dcnk
nur, du gchst nach Israel und inmittcn all diesct· Konfliktc drchst du cine Arbcit tiber cincn
Schonhcitswcttbcwcrb philippinischcr Hausangcstclltcr! Sagar in clicscm kurzcn Satz klingt
das komisch! lch wolltc cine pcrs6nlichcrc Ebcnc mit cinflidkn lassen, so class das Video nicht.
einrach ironisch odcr sarkastisch vcrstandcn wird. lch wolltc cinigcn Lcutcn, die in dicser
Gcmcinschall lcbcn, cine pcrsonlichc Stimmc gcbcn; auf jcdcn Fall James unci auch Mary
Lou. Es w�irc ihncn gcgcniibcr cinfach unfair gewcscn , nur den Film iibcr den Schonhcits­
wel\bewcrb zu zcigcn.
E.D.: Kannst du ctwas
zu
den Magazincn sagen, die eben falls im Rahmen dcr Arbcit ausgc­
stcllt wcrclcn? Wcshalb sind sic Tcil clcr Prliscntation gcwordcn?
K.E.: Es gibt fiinf Magazine dcr philippiniscbcn Gcmcinschaft in Israel, daruntcr Foca, Manila
Tcl Aviu, Kapami(ya unci Jl•labuhqy lrrar./. Sic crinncrn mich an Medmba, das Magazin li:ir tiirki­
sche Einwandcrcr in Deutschland. Solchc Magazine flir Einwanclcrcr sind in vcrschiedencn
Teilen dcr Welt immcr iihnlich. Sic haltcn die Gcmcinschaft wsammcn, mildcrn die Sehn­
sucht nach clcr Hcimat unci bcw<�hrcn ihrc Sprachc unci Kultur; bcinahc wic Gcmcinschaftcn
von l mmigramen, die in dcrsclbcn Nachbarschaft Ieben. Die Magazine clicncn immer einem
i\hnlichcn Zwcck. Die Busstation, wo dcr Schonhcitswcubcwcrb stattlindct, ist zum llcispicl
cin oiTcntlichcr Raum, dcr untcr cler Kontrollc dcr Einwandcrcr stclll. Dcr llinfle Stock mit
all seincn Liidcn hciBt 1vianila Avenue; aile Gcschliftc dort gchorcn den Filipinos. Die I-laus­
angcstelltcn kochcn zuhausc in ihrer Frcizcit Essen und vcrkaufcn cs clann samstags in dcr
Liiclcn importicrcn auch dirckt Sachcn von den Philippinen. i\1l an
Manila Avenue . Manchc
.
trinkt philippinisches llicr. Kurz gcsagt, dies ist cin Ort, tnn die Schnsucht nach clcr Heimat
auszulcbcn. Es hcrrscht cin buntcs Durchcinandcr vcrschicdener Mcnschcn, ganz ahnlich
wic in dcr zcntralcn Busstation Ist<�nbuls. Dbrigcns dlirfcn die ti.irkischcn Einwandcrcr bier in
Deutschland ja ganz legal cincn L"ldcn aufmachcn, die Filipinos in Israel nichl. Einc philip­
pinischc frnu kann mar cin Gcschaft eroni1cn, wcnn sic mit eincm Israeli vcrhciratct is1. Auch
sind die Arbcitsbcwilligungcn for die Hausnngcstclltcn auf \·icr.Jahrc limiticrl .
Um auf die Magazine 7.uri.lckzukommcn: 'v
l lan muss dazu sagcn, class sic bcrcits seit zchn
Jahrcn hcrausgcgcben wcrdcn, also kann ich unmoglich aile zcigcn. Ich traf cine Auswahl
unci es gibt cine Collage von Magazinco\-crs aus den lctztcn drciJahrcn, nicht chronologisch
an cincr Wand aufgehiingt. Es kommcn immcr wicder dicselben Themcn nuf den Titelscitcn
vor: Schonhcitstipps, Abschicbungcn oder Gewa.lt gegcn Frnuen. Es gibt viclc Covers, die
Frauen <:cigcn, die gesd1lngcn wurclcn, cbcnso Bilclcr von SchOnhcitswettbewcrbcn. Dcrart
kann das Publikum cinen Einblick in die letztcn drci.Jahrc clcr Gcmcinschafi gewinncn. Ein
andercs spanncndcs Dct<"lil sind die Rockseitcn; sic sind dcr prominentcstc und teucrstc Ort
ftir Anzeigen. lch stclltc fest, class viclc Magazine dort kein Inserat habcn, sonclcrn ein Bile!
von Jesus mit clcm S<tt7.: ,Jesus, in dich vertrauc ich." Dicscs Bild taucht mach in dcr Divine
Mercy Chapel auf, die mnn in cincm leer stchendcn Gcbiludc crrichtctc. Das Bile! von Jesus
ist Tcil dcr Fotoinstallation, cs untcrstreicht die wichtigc Rolle dcr Religion innerhalb dcr
Gcmcinschaft.
E.D.: Kunntcn clicsc Bildcr dazu dicncn, zwischen Binibiuing und Aslmm eincn Bczug hcrzu­
stcllen? Machen sic cine Aussagc iibcr das Nebcncinandcr 7.wcier schr verschicdcner Gemcin­
schaftcn in cin und dcrsclbcn Ausstcllung?
K.E.: Ja, allcrdings. Die Filipinos in Tel Aviv sind durch Jesus miteinandcr vcrbundcn; die
schiitischc Cafcri-Minorilllt durch Hussein. Bcicle \'Cnvciscn auf dassclbe, und zwaa· mcin
Interesse an Religion.
E.D.: lch crinncre mich an einige Biichcr, die ich bei dir gcschcn habc, unci an dcine Beto­
nung des rcligiosen Aspekts in unsercn letztcn Gesprachcn. \Vir sprachcn auch iibcr religiose
Erregung, <�Is wir die Aufnnhmen zu Aslmm anschautcn. Was mcinsl du clazu?
K.E.: Mcin Interesse an Religion bcgann, nls ich in den Osten rciste; bcrcits vor Ashurfl, wlih­
rcnd mcincr Arbcit an Biuibining. lvlit Osten meinc ich nicht Istanbul; es gibt zwar cincn
,Osten" in lstnnbul, abcr wir nehmcn ihn nicht wirklich wahr, wcil cr als uncool gilt. Das
rindc ich problcmatisch. fstnnbul war das Zentnnn des Ow�ns fur Hundcrte von.Jnhrcn; als
cs sich von Rom abspaltcte, nannte cs Konstantin das Ostrtimischc Reich. Und bci Istanbul
sprechcn wir iiber das Zentrum des Ostens wiihrend mehr als 1 .500 .Jahrcn, nimmt man das
tauscncljlihrige Byzalllinischc und das ctwa fiinlhundcrtjlihrigc Osmanische Reich zusam­
men. Und doeh sind wir unrahig, bier noch den Osten
w
schcn. Das hat mit dcr Rcpublik
unci ihrcm Erzichungssystem zu tun. Bci mcincn erstcn Besuchcn in Bcirut und.Jcrusalcm licl
mir auf, wie die Religion die Leutc zusammcnba·ingt, unci das bccinflusstc mich stark. D<tmals
emclecktc ich :�uch den Sufismus und den Philosophen Ibn Arabi. Es war auch die Zeit, in der
ich klfl.fit mul Jllfldzt von Cnnetli las.
E. D.: Viclleicht war dies unvcrmcidbar durch dcin Interesse an Gcmcinschaften. Ritualc sind
hllufig in einen rcligiOsen Kontcxt cingcbcttct. Abcr cs schcim mir, class clu auf' Religion aus
cincr andcrcn Pcrspckti\'C schaust, eincr, in der sic cher als sozialcs l3indcmiucl runktioniert.
Ein andcrcs sozialcs Bindcmiucl hasst du ja.
K.E.:Ja, ich hassc N<1tionalismus.
E.D.: Manchc sozialc Bindcmittcl hasst du, andere nicht; das ist in deinen Arbciten sichtbar.
K.E.: lch sehne mich nach eincr Welt, in der Tolemnz, Koexistenz, Freunclschaft unci Gast­
freundscha{i herrschcn. Das mag vielleicht roman tisch klingcn. Man dcnkt viellcicht sogar an
clas F.-age- und Antwortspicl bcim Schonheitswcttbcwcrb, wo sic sich clarubcr Iustig machcn,
class aile Bcwcrberinncn immcr Friede und Liebe flir nile wunschen! Abcr sic habcn doch
Recht! Es ist, wns wir am Ende aile wollcn: Liebe, Friede unci Frcundschali.; unci nicht cine
claucrndc Bcdrohung durch Konfliktc unci Krieg.
Ich bin bccindruckt, wic vic! ruhiger und gclassencr religiose Menschcn die Welt schcn; sic
sind tolcmntcr. Sic crduldcn Schmcrz unci konncn Losungcn flir wcltlichc Konflikte in cincr
vicl gclasseneren Art und \Vcise crkenncn. Dns kanntc ich in mcincr Jugcnd nicht. Als ich
mit dcr Schauspiclcrci bcgann, zahltc nur dcr individuellc Erfolg. Jeder versuchtc, es bcsser
zu m;�chen als der andere und am weitcsten von allen zu kommcn. Eines Tages sngte Profes­
sorin Dikmcn Curlin, mit clcr ich an der Istanbul Foundntion for Art and Culture arbcitctc
unci die jctzt mcinc Doktorarbcit bcglcitet: ,Kokcn, manchmal, ob bewusst odc1· unbewusst,
stchst du andercn auf die Zehcn,
tun
dcin eigcncs Ego unci dcinen Edolg aufzuplustern. Ich
findc das nicht gut unci kann dich nicht stoppcn. Aber mach nur so weitc1; dcnn jene, die sich
so vcrhalten, kommen in dcr \Vclt schr h'l.lt vorwilrts." Unci chum mcinte sic: ,Eines Tagcs
wirst du mich verstr.hcn." Seither habc ich mich sehr vcrtlnclert und erwllhnc Profcssorin
Giirlins Name und ihrcn dnmaligcn Rntschlag mit grof3em Rcspekt. Dieser Prozcss fiillt dam it
zusammcn, dass ich mchr unci mchr die Beriihrungsiingste mit dem Glaubcn vcrlor. Gleich
wic Durkhcim bin ich de1· i\Icinung, class dcr wichtigstc Unterschicd zwischen den Mcnschcn
darin bcstcht, ob sic gltiubig odcr nicht gliiubig sind.
E. D.: Das hnt auch mit dcr kompetitiven Struktur des zcitgcnossischen Kapitalismus zu tun.
Rcligioncn crwartcn immcr cine Demut. Dns ist niclus spczifisch Ostliches, das war fruher
auch in den wcstlichen Kulturen so. Abcr tiber die Zeit ist das vcrschwunden und die Lebcns­
stilc haben sich drastisch vcriindcrt. Hast du vor As/111m jcmnls iibcr cine Gruppe gcarbcitct,
die mit Religion zu tun hat?
ICE.: Ncin. !ch dachtc nicht cinmal
;111
Religion, nls ich cin Kind war. fn unserer Gcscll­
schaftsschicht lemten wir nur wenig clariibct; cs gab cine Stunde Rcligionsuntcrricht pm \Vo­
chc in der Mittclstufc. Wir warcn zicmlich vcrwirrt. Dcr Lehrer sprach tiber Gott, die Schop­
rung, Himmel unci Holle und wir hingen gcbannt an seincn Lippcn. Wir batten Unmcngcn
an Fragcn: \Vohin gehen wir, wcnn wir sterben? Jst 1\'Iasturbation Siindc? 1\fanche ,·on uns
glaubtcn dc1n Lchrerjedcs 'Wort unci wir mnchtcn tms dann iibcr sic lustig: ,Oh, das wire! cin­
mal cin frommer Muslim!" t\Jlc, die bctctcn, nannten wir ,li·omme iVIuslime", und zwar mit
cincm ncgativcn Untcrton. Die gcgcnwlirtigc Paranoia iiber die momentan rcgicrendc Partei
AKP kommt gcnau aus eincr solchcn Haltung. Wir wurdcn gut darin untcrrichtct, Religion
f
ur ctwns wirklich Schlechtcs zu haltcn.
Als ich alter wurde, bcgann ich mich fur Religion Zll intcressicren. fch rand grwissc Werre,
welchc die rcpublikanischc Ideologic mir vorenthaltcn hattc. Das war llir mich schr positiv.
lch habe cine sehr bcsondcre Vorstcllung vom Glauben. Ibn Arabi hauc cs in etwa so formu­
licrt: ,Aile glaubcn an ihrc cigcncn Propheten unci ich glnubc an allcs, an was sic glaubcn,
aile zusammcn." Ich glaubc cbcnfalls, class wir a1lc Prophetcn unci Philosophcn scin konncn,
abcr die gcgcnwllrtigc Gcscllschaft liisst uns chcr Idccn konsumicrcn als sclbcr wclchc pro­
duzicn:n. Es gibt cinzclnc Lcutc, die cine Art Collage basteln, indcm sic die Namcn grollcr
Denker ancinandcrrcihcn. Das ist an den Hochschulcn schr h:iufig clcr Fall. Abcr indcm ich
rcistc und sclbcr hinsah, lcrntc ich, class jcdcr cinzclnc �lcnsch ctwas kann, zu ctw;ts imstandc
ist, unci dcran ctwas Goulichcs hat. lch mcinc ,gottlich" in eincm schr dcmOtigcn unci hu­
manistischcn Sinn, so wic
Bedcutsamcs zu sagcn.
cs
auch die Sufistcn vcrstchcn. Und jcdcr von uns hat auch ctwas
E.D.: Das ist in dcincr Arbcit sichtbar. Du zcigst den Wert, den Gcmcinschaftcn, von dcncn
man kaum ctwas wcill, gencricrcn. Du sprichst darlibcr kaum, aber so, wic du die Hilder
zcigst, validicrst du clicsc Gcmcinschaftcn. Du sagst, jcdcr kann ctwas Wcrtvollcs schafTcn,
ctwa wcnn er cincm grOilcrcn Kollcktiv crwas gibt.
K.E.: Die ldcc des Kollcktivs wird immc1· stiirkcr. Unci dahintcr vcrbirgt sich mcinc cigcne
Langcwcilc mit dcm Individualismus. Abcr cs ist komisch, class vor allcm das, was wir in der
Kunst tun, so schr mit lndividualismus vcrbunclcn ist.
E. D.: Auch wcnn cs cin ctwas abgcgrifTcncs Thcma ist, mochtc ich dich an cliescr Stelle nach
dcincr Mcinung zum Potential dcr Kunst, die Gescllschaft zu vcrt\ndcrn, li·agcn: Kann dciner
Mcinung nach dcinc Arbcit dazu bcitragcn? Odcr wiirdcst du sagcn, class du dich vcrsuchst
weitcrwbildcn, was dann cvcntncll am Endc cincn Einfiuss auf die Welt habcn kann?
K.E.: Das lctztcrc. Zucrst muss man sich selber kcnncn. Wcn n ich hchauptetc, mit mciner
Arbcit die \'\'cit vcrandcrn zu wollcn, dann ware ich cin Komplizc des wcstlichen Individua­
lismus, den ieh ja kritisierc. . .
E.D.: ... und glcichzcitig cin chcr distanzicrtc1· Beobachter.
K.E.: Gcnau. Ich mochtc mich sclbcr kcnncn, abcr ich babe kcincrlci Intention, die Lcutc
\·crlindern zu wollcn. lch dcnkc, nicmand hat clas Recht cincn andcrcn i\Icnschcn odn die
Natur ?.U vcrl\ndcrn. Meine Erzichungjcdoch Iehne, class cin Individuum die Welt vcrllndern
kann unci soli. Uns wurdc sogar dcr wirklich schriigc Slogan cingctrichtcn: ,Ein Tiirkc ist
sovicl wert wic die ganzc vVclt." Manchc rcligiiisen Gruppcn glaubcn, class dcr ivlcnsch nicht
von Rcgcln kontrollicrt wcrdcn kann, die cr sclbcr gcschaffcn hat. Einigc kritisicrcn das chum
cinfach als Scharia. \Vir mac hen dicsc Gruppcn klein, weiI wir den ken, class di<:scr Glaubc auf
von Gull gcsandtcn Rcgcln basicrt. Und doch crkennc ich darin ctw<ts Gcsundcs. Mcnschcn
dlirfcn nicht i.lbcr Leben und Tod andcrcr i\'lcnschcn bcstimmcn und cbcnso wcnig iibcr
andere Mcnschcn hcrrschcn.
Einc wcitcrc Bcobachtung war, dass religiose .Mcnschcn akzcpticrcn, dass cs cine hiihcrc
Instanz <�Is sic sclbcr gibt. Unci wcil sic sich davor fiirchtcn, tun sic manchc, untcr Umstlin­
dcn zcrs!Orcrischc Dingc nicht. Auch ihrc Einstcllung zur Natur ist vollkommcn andcrs.
Sic wollcn sic nicht vcrllndcrn, sondcrn sich d<Jrin intcgricrcn. Sich intcgricrcn und gcdul­
dig scin, bcidcs Dingc, die fi.ir Jndiviclualistcn cin Graus sind. Dcr Mensch hal den Lauf
so manch cines Flusscs vcrlindcrt, immcr mchr \·crlangt unci Dammc unci Kanlilc gcbaut.
1\·fan dcnkc nn den Suezkanal: l\Ioscs tcilte das Rotc l\·lccr auch, abcr nachdcm er cs
durchqucrt hattc, schloss cs sich wicdcr. Ich wcill nicht, ob ich mich hicr gut vcrstlindlich
m<tchc: Ich bin an Mcnschcn imcrcssicrt, die d<�ran glaubcn, dass cs ctwas ihncn Obcrgc-
ordnctcs gibt, das mlichtigcr ist als sic sclbst; Dingc, die wir nicht kontrollicrcn konncn.
Meine philippinischcn Frcundc sind dafiir cin gutcs Beispiel: Ich fragc sic hiiufig um Rat,
wir sctzcn uns <�uscinandcr. . . Ich lcrnte von ihncn schr vicl! In den Krciscn, aus dcncn
ich stamrnc, wilrdc man auf sic hcrabschcn unci sagcn: ,Das sind gcwohnlichc, ignorantc
Lcute, die zuhausc herumsitzcn und nichts tun." Doch ich bin angctan von ihrcr Art zu
Ieben, vicllcicht auch deshalb, wcil ich sclbcr nicht so Ieben kann. Ich bdindc mich hicr
\virklich in cinem Dilemma: Eincrscits versuche ich, dicscm schr bcsondcren Lebcnsstil zu
folgcn, andcrcrscits lcbc ich in eincr individualistischcn Gcsellschaft. Viclleicht kann ich
cincn andcrcn \Veg i'iir rnicb selbst rinckn, nachdcrn icb all die vcrschicclcncn Mi.iglichkci­
tcn gcschcn habc.
E.D.: Viclleicht ist der religiose Glaubc cine Moglichkcit, den andcrcn so zu akzcptiercn, wie
cr ist.
K.E.: Absolut.
E.D.: Unci ich dcnke, vicle l'vl.iss\"ersliindnisse cntspringcn Generalisierungcn oder dcr Ver­
binclung gcwisser Mcrkmalc von Lcbcnsstilcn mit Religion, ohnc class sic wirklich etwas mit
Religion zu tun habcn.
K.E.: Wie du sagst, clas \<\1ichtigstc ist, die Mcnschcn so zu akzcptiercn, wic sic sind. Sci cs
bczliglich Religion, \Vissenschaft, Ideologic odcr was auch immcr, sulangc das nur gesehicht!
Das Bczugssystcm ist nicht so wichtig, solangc clicses Zicl vcrfolgt wird. Das wiin: die gro/3tc
Tugencl, abcr keincr von uns kann es wohl vollumt1inglich cinloscn. Hicr in Europa cnlsteht
zum Beispiel cine crnstzunchmcndc Xenophobic.
E. D.: lch fl.ihlc mich crinncrt an David Harvcys Kritik an den Kulturwisscnsclmftcn, die an
viclcn westlichcn Hochschukn heutc angcbotcn wcrdcn. Ganz kurz gcsagt argumentiert ct;
class dcr \•Vcstcn zwar am Osten intercssicrt isl, abcr unt1ihig clazu ist, cincn bestimmtcn Text
etwa wie ein Chinese lcsen rcspcktivc vcrstehcn zu konncn. Der Westen konntc sich clcran
von dcr Kultur des Ostcns nic cin korrcktcs Bild machen unci sah sic immer nur clureh seine
cigenc Brille. l1dan ist ncugicrig unci insisticrt glcichzcitig darauf, cs nicht zu \"Crstchcn; clas
ist rnir unbcgreiflich.
K.E.: Ncugicrdc als solche ist cin gro/3cs Thema. In cincm gcwisscn Sinn ist sic gcl1ihrlich.
Ich fragc mieh, ob sic wirklich notwendig ist? Es bcriihrl die Diskussion iibcr Repriiscntation.
Es gilll das sch(ine englischc Sprichworl: .,Curiosity killed the cat, information made it fat."
li:Iit Oliver sprach ich clartibcr, wie etwa die Chincscn an ;�nclcrcn Kulturcn dcsintcrcssicrt
warcn. Ich frage mich, ob Neugicrdc cher cine westliehc Eigcnschaft ist? Schauen wir uns
die Tradition der Dokumcntation im Westen an: Es gibt Tauscnclc Filme tiber die Leben
andercr·. Dcr Ausgangspunkt ist clabei mcistcns die Ncugicrclc. Abcr was gcschieht mit dcm
Publikum, nachrkm es dicsen Film gcschcn hat? Einige wiirden zum Beispiel sagcn: ,lch sah
cine schr scht>nc Dokumcntation, abcr cs ist cine Schancle, wic dicse Lctrtc Ieben mUsscn."
Lt>scn die Dokurncntationcn sclbcr solchc Rcaktioncn aus? Unci wic ist cs bci Kunstwcrkcn?
Wcnn Neugicr nicht zu cincr Form von Kocxistcnz fiihrt, clann wircl sic geflihrlich, wcil sic in
cincm l:Jc,·ormundcndcn Vcrhnltcn cndct. ..
E.D.: . . . ganz ilhnlicb wic bcim Tourismus, wcnn cine Rci�c nicht intcrnalisicrt wird.
K.E.: Das ist noch schr optimistisch rormulicrt, ich wlirclc stiirkcrc Wortc vcrwcndcn!
E. D.: In Wl!-"DDJNG zcigst du bcispiclswcisc die Lcutc, wic sic von den Glisten das Geld cin­
samrncln. Wir beide kcnnen diescs Ritual, wei! wir aus dcr Torkci Stammen. Es ist cine Form
von Solidarillit, cs gcht clarum, cngen Freunden unci Vcrwancltcn finanzicll zu helfcn, wenn
sic hciratcn. Aus ciner gcwisscn Distanz sicln cs clagcgcn schr kapitalistisch aus.
K.E.:ja, ich bckam ahnlichc Konunentarc zu horcn.
E.D.: Ahnlich in Aslwm, wo die Darstellcr als Fanatikcr stigmatisicn werdcn konnten, wiih­
rend du sic jcdoch als Gruppc zcigst, die zum Wcincn zusammenkommt. Wer hiitlc schon
Angst vor cincr Gruppe, die zusmnmcn wcint? Ich findc, clcinc Herangchcnswcisc unci wic du
mit clcincr cigencn Ncugicr umgchst ist dabci zcntral.
K.E.: Wir konncn nicht komrollicren, wic das Publikum in der Schwciz odcr irgendwo sonst
darauf reagiercn wircl; viellcicht ist das sogar gut so. Man kann dcnken, cs scicn Fanatiker,
aber das finde ich nicht. Viellcicht mlisstc clas Publikum idcalerweisc ;o;ucrst mich und die Tor­
kci kcnncnlcrncn und mit andercn Rcligioncn in Kontakt trctcn. Abcr das solltcn wir nicht
crwartcn, cs gibt nicmandcn, den wir bier in die POicht zu nchmen hliltcn.
E.D.: lch daclllc auch an die arabische Schrift in dcr Moschcc, die irgcndwann in Ashum
crschcint. Wir bcidc wisscn, class die wcstlichen Mcclicn, wcnn sic cincn Bcrichl tiber die
Tiirkci vorbc•·citcn, immcr diesclben stcreotypischcn Dildcr zeigcn, unter andercm die Frau
mit Kopftuch, llirkischc Schriftzcichcn unci cine Gruppc von �hnnern mit Schnunbart. tvlan
zcigt nicht Bildcr von Leutcn wic uns, wei! wir niclu dcm stercotypcn llild von Tiirken cnt­
sprcchcn. Bcunruhigt dich dcr Gcclankc, class cin Publikum, das an solchc Bildcr gcwobnt ist,
dcinc 1\rbcit vicllcicht ganz andcrs vcrstcht?
K . E . : Ncin, Obcrhaupt nicht. Man kann cs nichtjcdcm recht machcn. \Venn cin Kunstwcrk
allen ctwas crzlihlen will, stimmt ctwas damit nicht. Du kannst vom l'ublikum nicht crwar­
tcn, ctwas mit dcincn Augen zu schcn; clas wlirc falsch. lch bin froh, wcnn mcine t\rbcit auch
nur cincn von hunclert Zuschaucm bcrllhrt. Abcr manchmal gibt cs gar keinc unmittclbarc
Rcaktion, jemand kann unter Umstiindcn erst jahre, nachdcm cr die Arbeit �eschen hat,
rcagicren.
Um auf die Religion zuriick:wkommcn: lch muchte noch bcmcrkcn, dass es in dcr Religion
vicl Uncrkhirbares gibt. In clcr Wisscnschaft gibt cs stcts die cine riehtige Losung. ln cincm
Anikcl schricb Terry Eagleton nculich, dass Religion und Kunst schr viclc Gemcinsamkcitcn
habcn, wei! sic beidc abstraktc Konzcptc sind; ganz andcrs die Wisscnschaft.
E. D.: Nun, ich dcnkc auch die \Visscnschaft ist an dicscm Punkt angckommcn. Wic du sagtcst,
Wisscnschaft basien auf dcm rnodcrncn Konzept cincr cinzigcn Wahrheit. Es gibt gcgcnwar­
tig cine Diskussion clarubcr, oh wir nicht gcrade Zcugen eincr AuOosung dieses wcstlichcn
Bcwusstscins sind, das alles vcrsucht zu rcgcln. Unci ganz gcncrcll sind die Lcutc cher un­
glncklich.
K.E.: Tch miJchtc dich hier untcrbrechcn. Du sagst, sic seicn ungliicklich. Hicr mochtc ich
ubcr Pallistina unci Israel sprcchcn, den Ort, an clcm sich Ost unci \.Vest wirklich trcffcn.
Politisch gcschcn ist clas liulkrst chaotisch. Abcr wcnn man die \Vest Bank bcsucht, mcrkt
man, class die Lcutc dart zicmlich gliicklich sind! Auch wcnn sic untcr cincr Bcsatzung Ieben,
vcrliercn sic nic ihrc Ho!Tnung.
In dcr israclischcn Gcscllschali clagcgcn hcrrschl Vcrzwciflung, vor allcm in den sakularcn
Krciscn. Und in Israel sicht mnn schr vicl von clcr wcstlichcn Kultu1: Hoflilllngslosigkcit
schcint mchr und mchr die westlichc \Vclt
zu
charaktcrisicrcn. Es s
i t wahl kaum cine un­
wllissigc Gcncralisicrung, zu bchauptcn, Ho!Tnungslosigkcit cntstchc in Gcscllschaftcn, wo
clcr Glaubc zurlickgcdriingt wird. Als wir klein warcn, lchrte man uns, die skanclinavischc
\'Vohlluhrtsgescllschaft zu bewundcrn. Abcr auf cincm sozialen Niveau hcrrscht dart Holf­
nungslosigkci t und sic habcn die hochstcn Selbstmordraten.
E.D.: WeiI sozialc, religiose Ritualc in diescr Region nicht gcpflcgt wcrdcn?
K.E.: Vicllcicht. Abcr cs gibt auch Rinoalc jcnscits von Religion, cs gab sic immcr. So habcn
die Filipinos in Tel Aviv Ritu�lc in dcr Kirchc unci an Schonhcitswcttbcwcrbcn. Sic nutzcn
die Wcttbcwcrbc als sozialcs Ritual, als Bindcmittcl, so wichtig wic Wassc1· unci Brot. Auch
Lcutc, die nicht in die Kirchc gchcn, mosscn gcwissc Ritualc habcn. Unci dies geschicht in dcr
Regel in eincm Kollcktiv. Man ist nicht fur sich allcin, sondcrn tcilt cs mit andcrcn.
lch wcrdc in cinigcn Monatcn tiber Binibining und Aslwra cin Gcsprach fuhrcn; ich mochtc
cs Bntr allcin i.rt ein.wm ncnncn. Dicscr Titcl ist von mcincr Frcundin Gol inspiricrt; als ich
kurzlich dcprimicrl war und sic anricf, horte sic mir gcduldig zu. Am Endc mcintc icl1: ,Ich
dcnkc, ich solltc lcrncn, wic man allcinc sein kann." Sic antwortctc: .,Das ist Unsinn! \Vir
aile vcrsuchcn das unci am Endc funktionict·t cs cinf.Kh nicht!" Scicn cs Religion, Rituale,
gcscllschaftlichc Vcranstaltungcn odcr \·Visscnschaft, allcs funktionicrl nur solangc cs cincn
Zusammcnhalt zwischen den iV!enschcn gibt. An solchcn Dingcn bin ich intcrcssic1·t.
E. D.: Du intcrcssicrst dich flir vcrschicdcne sozialc Bindcmittcl.
ICE.: Gcnau.
E. D.: lch vcrstchc, was du mcinst, wenn du sagst: .,lhr lebt cin stcrilcs Leben." Oclcr: ,Schaut,
es gibt vcrschicclcnc lv!oglichkcitcn, zu Ieben und cin Kollcktiv zu scin." Abcr bis 1.t1 wclchcm
Grad machst du dicsc sozialc Binclung sichtbar, crkennbar? Die Arbcitcn fokussicrcn mcistcns
auf cine Situation unci strcichcn die Binclcmittcl, \'On dcncn wir sprachen, nicln besondcrs
hcraus.
K.E.: In meincn Arbeitcn mochtc ich nicht das O!Tenkundigc wicdcrholcn. Ich folgc nicht
cincm didaktischcn Plan unci bchaupte, ich wollc sozialc Dindcmittel sichtbar machcn. Zum
Beispiel ist clcr Rhythmus bcim Schnitt cnorm wichtig. Ich iibcrnchmc zu Bcginn h;iulig die
Encrgic dcr Musik aus dcm gcfilmtcn i\'[atcrial. In J>l!EDDING und A.rl111m sind es gcmcinsa­
mc Bcwcgungen unci Tanzc, wclchc die Leutc mitcinandcr vcrbindcn; clicscm kiirpcrlichcn
Rhythmus lolgc ich. Zum Beispiel zcigcn die crstcn zchn iV[inutcn von .:lJ/111m Caf.:ris, die sich
auf die Brust schlagen. Abcr ich hebe das nicbt zwingcndcrma!kn als cincn V01·gang hcrvor,
dcr sowohl die Gcmcinschaft als auch mein Video zusammcnhtilt.
E.D.: \Vic schaucn dcinc Zukunfispl�lnc aus? Gibt cs bcreits cine Projckticlcc nach Aslwra?
K.E.:Ja, ich miichte cine Arbcit iibcr die Schwulcnkultur des Westens machcn. In den lctztcn
fiinfJahrcn habc ich immcr wicdcr an Schwulcnparadcn auf dcr ganzcn \>Vclt gclilmt. Da ich
Tcil dicscr Gcmcinschaft bin, wird cs ein cher pcrsonliches Projekt; allcrdings gibt cs dort cin
paar Dingc, mit dcncn ich mich iibcrhaupt nicht ide::ntifizicrcn kann. Zum Beispiel gibt es im·
mer dicscn Drcsscoclc, cine so e;.;plizitc Zugchorigkcitsbchauptung - ,\Vir sind hicr und wir
sind anclcrs." - unci cs gibt dicsc Routine fOr Schwulc, an bcsonderc Ortc zu gchcn. Eincrscits
bctont man immcr, class man andcrs sci, andcrcrscits will man unbcdingt die exakt gleichcn
Rcchtc wie aile andcrcn in dcr Gcscllschalt. Es schcint bcinahc cincn Glaubcn zu gcbcn, class
dies dcr cinzigc unci ide ale Lifestyle flir Schwulc sci. Abcr cs gibt andere Moglichkcitcn in dcr
Wclt und clas wtirdt ich gcrnc ctwas verticfcn.
Auf liingerc Sicht kann cs sein, class ich den Versuch nach Rcprliscntation kornplctt aufgcbc;
das sehcim mir beinahc sicher. tvlrin Zugang ist fiir die bildcndc Kunst sowicso uniiblich, er
ist wahl eher cth nogralisch. Abcr viclleicht cndct nuch dies unci ich lasse allcs hinter mir unci
sehrcibc cin llueh. Will hciflen, class ich mich vom Hild vcrabschicdc.
E.D.: lch konntc cs gut vcrstchcn, wenn clu zu schreibcn bcginnst. lch habc lihnliehc Vor·
bchaltc gcgcnlibcr visucllcr Darstcllung. Sic blcnclct stets irgcndctwas von dcr rcalen '"'cit
aus. Du arbcitcst mit vielcn verschicdcncn Leuten unci ich kann mir vorstcllcn, class du viclc
Erlahrungcn, Gcschichtcn unci Idecn ignoricrcn musst, wcnn du cin Video clrchst. Du pro·
duzierst dabci jcdoch cine Art Wissen; vicllcicht willst du aueh dcshalb gcrnc cines Tagcs
schrcibcn. Vicllcicht um ctwas zu \·erbrcitcn, wozu die bildcndc Kunst nicht gut gecignct ist?
K.E.: Die heiden Rcligionen, mit dcnen wir vertraut sind, Islam und .Judemum, habcn keinc
grol1c Bildtradition. Im Christcntum ist chts andcrs, hier gibt es cine mlichtigc Kultur des
Bildcs; wir kcnncn sic beispiclswcisc in Fonn von.Jcsus·Ikoncn in den Kirchen lstanbuls. Die
schcn auch sehr didaktisch aus.
E.D.: Glasrnalcrci war die Schulc rur die Masse. Naeh clcr Zeit cler lliichervcrbrcnnungcn
crsetztcn Bildcr die Worte, wcil cs vicle Analphabctcn gab. Das Zicl war die 13ildung mithilfe
von Glasfcnstern.
.
K.E.: Gcnau. i\bcr cs ist cine cinf 'lchc Darstcllung, cin Bilclsystcm, das dieh dominicn. Es
existiert im Islam odcr .Judcntum nieht; cs gibt kcinc Ikoncn von 111oscs in eincr Synagoge.
Warum habcn dicsc vcrniinftigen Lcutc dcm Bild nur wiclcrstchcn konncn? Bilclcr sind ein
einfltchcs l\tedium; sic konncn die Menschcn sehr Ieicht tauschcn.
E.D.: Die wcstlichc Kultur hat Organisationssystcmc cntworlcn, Philosophic in Biichcr gc·
prcsst unci bildliehc Darstellung bcnutzt; dcr Osten schcint cher
schon? \\'er bin ich denn, class ieh ctwas darstcllcn solltc?
w
fi·agen ... Wer bin ich
K.E.: Ganz gcnau! \Vcr bin ich sehon? Dankc! Das ist wiehtig, ieh bin crlcichtert. ,Wcr bin
ich schon?" Das fltsst es zusammcn! Das ist cine garrl wichtigc Frage unci ich wiinschtc, nile
LetHe wiirckn sic sich stcllcn. Stattdcsscn sagen die meisten: ,lch bin, was ich bin, unci ich
kann dieses odcrjenes tun." Man sagt auch: .,Ich dcnkc, also bin ich." Wie durnm und falsch!
ll·lanehc Leutc vcrsuchcn den Strom des Lcbcns zu vcriindern, andere sagen sich: ,\Vcr bin
ich dcnn, dns ich die \Yclt vcrli ndcrn sollte?" Lctztere wcrclcn oft als pnssil' missvcrstandcn,
abcr ich denkc, dicsc Art von !VIenschcn bcginncn keincn Krieg. fch wUnlc mir wUnschcn,
class clicsc Lcutc die \Vclt rcgicrcn. Sic worden keinc llolasscn Uberzcugcn wollcn, ihncn zu
folgcn und andere nicdcrzumctzeln. Ich clcnkc, das war cs, was Plato mcintc, nls cr sagtc,
idcalcrweisc sollten die Philosophcn rcgicren. Diese gauze Problematik prligt auch mcincn
cigenen Alltag. \'11ir funktioniercn mittcls Lcbcnsliiufcn; du bist sovicl, wic du gcmacht hasl.
Wir bciclc produzicrcn wcnig Kunstwcrkc, abcr maeht uns das zu schlcchtercn Konstlcrn?
E. D.: Manchmal mache ich cin Kunstwcrk ohnc cs jcmandcm zu zcigcn.
K.E.: Grolhrtig! lt:h bcncidc clas. Unci dcshalb wolltc ich dicsc Untcrhaltung mit dir fiihrcn.
Abcr Leutc wic wir sind nicht so crfolgrcich, wic du wcil3t.
E.D.: Ich kann ja nicht den globalcn Kapitalismus kritisicrcn uncl glcichzcitig cine karricrcori­
cnticrlc Kiinstlcrin scin. Ich bin wohl chcr cine Idealistin. Unci ja, cs gibt Pmblcme; Problcmc
der Sichtbarkeit zum Beispiel. Abcr ich kiimmcrc mich nicht darum.
Du machst kcinc Arbeitcn Ubr::r lndividucn und du produzicrst kcinc fiktiven Gr::schiehtcn. Du
glaubst nicht an d<�s Individuum unci mngst cs nicht. So wilrdc ich dcinc Arbcit verstchcn; ich
denkc, ich verstehc cndlich, wcshalb clcinc Videos nic von Inclividuen handcln.
Als Rcaktion auf die Modcrnc wies die zcitgcni\ssischc Kunst immcr wicdcr darauf hin, class
cs den cincn Au tor cigcntlich nicht gibt, ebcnso wcnig wic das Genic. Derart clistanzicnc sic
sich von der Modernc. Allcrdings finde ich cs langwcilig, wcnn man von den Kiinstlcrn crwar­
lcl, dassclbe nun immcr und immcr wicclcr zu thcmatisiercn. Du sagst, du slihest dich nicht
cinmal sclbcr als Konstlet: Das hciflt, Konstlcr produzicrcn dciner Mcinung nach noch immer
ctwas vollig Abgchobcncs. Das soliten wir schon IUngst hinter uns habcn. Abcr ich bin nicht
einvcrstanclcn, class wir nicht erfolgrcich sind; Erfolg muss man lediglich andcrs dclinicrcn.
K.E.: Ich babe noch immcr Ho!Tnung. Ich glaubc, Kiinstlcr wic wir wcrclcn auch <Jnerkannt,
abcr das System favorisicn cincn andcrcn Typus: 1\mbitiosc, knrricrcorienticnc Letlte obcrle­
bcn einfachct: Einc Ausstcllung zu habcn, hciBt noch lange nicht, class man cin gutcr Kiinstlcr
ist. !�Jan kann cin gutcs Nctzwcrk krcicrcn, mit den richtigcn Lcutcn ins Gcsprlich kommen
uncl danach cine Ausstellung milchen. Abcr cs gibt LcU!c, die Iehnen dies ab, unci sic intct·cs·
sicren mich. Abcr clcnnoch, clas System hat bcrcits cin gcwisscs Bild von eincm et·folgreichcn
Klinstlcr ctablicrt. Jcnc, die li·agcn: ,Wer bin ich schon?" fugcn sich clarin nicht gcradc gut
em.
E.D.: Konstkr habcn hcutc cine Vcrpllichtung, die Dingc richtig zu machcn. Ich dcnkc, die
Klinstlcr dcr iiltcrcn Generation warcn frcicr, unkonvcntioncllcr. jetzt gibt cs cin Geschiifts­
modcll: lVIan benutzt Macs, man schickt rcchtzcitig cine DVD, man trinkt in Gcsellschaft,
abcr nicht, wenn man vic! zu tun hat ... !Vlladcn Stilinovic sagt in scincm l..IJblied mlj die F
aulhrit,
Ktinstlcr im Westen seicn nicht lim! unci clcshalb wcnigcr KOmtlcr, sonclcrn Pmduzcnten von
ctwas. Hicr kann man deinc Obsession fUr dcinc Arbcit cnvlihncn; du hast clich tiber die Zeit
hinwcg vcr;indcrt, ich hahe cs sclbst bcmcrkt. Bist du von ciner chcr analytischcn Vorgchcns­
wcise zu cincr chcr personlich oricntierten gclangt?
I<.. E.: Ja, cs ist wic den Lichtschalter in cincm dunklcn Raum zu finden. Zuerst war ich in
Panik und ranntc von links nach rcchts, um den Schaltcr 7.U findcn, wobei ich cinigc Dinge im
Raum umwarf. Jctzt machc ich cs uberlcgtcr und sclbstsichcrcr. Es gibt hicr viclc Faktorcn;
Alte1; Erl'ahrung und Prllscnz mciner \Vcrkc. Jedc Ausstcllung, jedes Konstlcrgcsprlich hilft
cincm, sieh gcschicktcr zu bcwcgcn. l\'lan bchandclt auch die cigcne Arbcit bcsscr. Zu Be­
ginn arbcitctc ich cxtrcm obscssiv, ich foltcrte mich und me inc Arbcit gcradczu, nur aus dcr
Angst nieht Zll genligcn. Das hallC auch rur mcin Privatlcbcn Konsequenzen. �v{cin damaligcr
Freund mochtc WEDDiNG ubcrhaupi nicht, dcnn ich vcrbrachtc all meinc freie Zeit bcim
Schnciclcn. TA.NKLOVE war gcprllgt von Pcrrormanccstrcss sowic Restriktionen, die ich mir
sclbst <lufcrlcgt hattc; erst als ich mich \'Om rc;tlcn Gcschehcn mitrcillen lassen konlllc, rea­
lisicrte ich das wirklich vVichtigc. Das hat mit ctwas
zu
tun, wortiber wir gcsprochcn habcn,
namlich die Obsession, die Natur vcrllndcrn zu wollcn. Ich war stcts von Stilinovics Text
bccinflusst; ich kann vicllcicht mcinc ArbciL�mcthodcn lindcrn, <1bcr faul scin kmm ich nichl.
Es ist gcgen meinc Natur.
E. D.: So habc ich cs nicht gcmcint. Du magst dcinc Arbeit unci du arbcitcst so gcrnc, wcil du
sic magst.
K.E.: Die Muslimc sagen: ,Arbcit kommt \'0111 Glaubcn." Ich \Trstchc, was Stilinovic mcint:
Dcin Geist ist viel
w
voll, du musst ihn cntlccrcn. Lcutc wcrdcn durch das System bcschliftigt
gchaltcn, sic miisscn immcr ctwas crlcdigcn, sci cs lcrnschcn, ctwas im Internet suchcn und
so wcitcr. Es gibt immer irgcndein Gcrliusch, das einen <�blcnkt. Stilinovic finclct im Nichtstun
cine Tiitigkcit. Er ist dcr Mcinung, cr dcnkc, wiihrcnd cr schlaft unci gcht in cine Galcric unci
schllift clort.
E.D.: Ich vcrstchc dicscs Nichtstun als cine antikapiwlistischc Strategic.
K.E.: Nun, wir sagcn uns doch immcr: ,\Vir arbcitcn unci arbcitcn - unci dann was?"
Berlin, im Juli 20 I I
E! .�li\S OENIZ
Elm as Deniz (* 1 93 1 , lives and \\'Orks in hwnbul) is an anist, writer and initiator of ,r,u·ious artist run
initiatives and s.;ll:organiscd projects. She is founder of Merkezka� publications, 201 l . She current!)'
collaborates with i\crk �bsa and organises talks at Dcpo in lst:mbul. She was Oil!' of tlu: founders and
project directors of K2 t\nist Initiative between 2004-2007 in lzmir. She is interested in global power
structures, state-contro_l, urbanism, and globalisation in her practice. She eurated Ot·trtimt 11 ork, the
.:xhibition where Koken Ergun's work Binibining Promiud l..mul had its first publk showing in 20 I 0.
KOKEN ERGUN
Kukcn Erb'l.lll (* I 976, lives and works in Ucrlin and Istanbul) tmined first as an actor; before studying
classics and art history. After working with American theatre director Robcn \Vilson, he started making
visual art in 2003. Since then, his work has been widely acclaimed, shown in numerous group shows
'"orldwidc and induded in m:uor public collections. His video work has been awarded se\·cral prizes at
film festivals. Ergun is currcmly writing his PhD at the Frcil· Uni\'crsitlit, Berlin. His blo�,>s, dedicated to
each or his projects, can be reached on www.indcxof\vorks.com
OI.IYER KIEU\I1WER
Oliver· Kiehna)•cr (* 1970, li,·cs and \\'orks in Zurich) studied an history, philosophy and English
literature. Since 2006 he has been director of' the Kunsthallc \Vimcrthur. He teaches art history at the
f+F School for Art and i\lcclia Design, Zurich and is a member of the jury for the Kanton Zurich
art award. In 200j, he was co-curator or the /BCA-lultmntional Bimni!ll of ContmtjJOrnT)' Art in Prague.
In 200·� he founded ff'�'frt71tttfrtsls,
i
a network project that ((x:uscs on open discourse and authentic
communication nbout art by means of a homcpagc nnd a free newspaper.
lt\N WHIT!)
Inn White (• 197 1 , li\'cS and works in B!'rlin and London) is an artist, writer and curator speciaJising
in artists' moving image and performance. From 2001-20 1 1 he was Adjunct Film Curator at
the WhitcchapL·I Gallery, London. Independent pmjects include Aiuomusmm li>r till: Obcrhauscn
International Short Film Festival, accompanied by a publication, and The Artists Gi'ntnw at Frieze Art
r;:tir. His writing has been widely published and includes catalogue cssa}'S on Sharon Lockhart, Rosa
Barba, Gerard Byrne and Paul l'fcirrcr, as well as a contribution to the recent hook and screening series
in Berlin, /'.101 Mon:r Etjm.r.rion. His solo show, lbi;:o /Jiack Hogs Democrat)' was at tlH! daadgalcrie, Berlin
in July 20 I 0, nnd was accompanied by a publication of the same title. He is Lhc l�tcilitator of the LUX
i\sscx:iatc Artists Programme, London.
·�OPHESiz HOsEYiN
HIDAYFr ME5AL£Si
VE KURI'ULU�
GEMisiDbr
Wl-10 M'l l ANYWAY? - THREE INTERVIEWS WITH KOKEN ERGUN
Published by
Kunsthatlc \Vinlcrdmr on tht oecasion of the exhibition
KOKEN ERG UN at Kunsthillle Wimcrthur; Ortober· 9th tu Novcmlx·r 20th
201
l.
Concept
OLIVER KIEL�IAYER,
K()KEN ERGUN
Editor
OLIVER KIELMAYER
lntcrvie,vs
ELMAS DENIZ,
KOKEN ERGUN.
OLIVER K!EL�li\YER,
I;\N WI·IITE
Photos
K0KEN ERGUN,
EM IN
KURTOGLU,
GOL KOZACJO(;t.L',
i\I.AYA INBAR,
1-IOLBAEK i\i\!TS VENS'I'ERBLAD
Translations
OLIVER KIEL�IAYER (English-Gnman),
OZGE ERSOY (l'mkL<h-English)
Copy Editing
.JULIA WOI..F (Ccrman),
l'i\Ul. l-IARPER (English)
Design
STUDIO LAillllL I HOiiiBURGER,Ikrlin
K<>k{'n Ergun wishes (0 thank the nt('Hlb<�rs of thc Filipino community in Israel,
Cafcri n:skknts of tht Z<·yrwbiyc neighbourhood in Istanbul, and liu: people- ofjy<krup,
D('nmark. fot thl'ir t.'l('l'nal friendship and
!m·<.·.
The works mcmion('cl in lhc intc..�rvic\,�s havl' been supponcd br the fbllowing institutions :md indi,·iduals: PlatfOrm
Gar·anti ContrmJxmuy Art C,·ntcr. Till' Israeli Center for Digital t\rt, Bilge & Haro Cumbusy:u1. Kunsthallr
\Vintt·rthur. Su
spended Spi�res. U�Turn Qpodriennial of Contc..·mporary s\rts, Solyst Artist in Rc�icknry Cemcr,
Transott Video, \Verklcitz Center for �lcdia 1\rt, ;:md Knnsdc•rh�lust'r \\'orSp\\·t'dc.
This. publication h;ts b<"('ll rcalised with the gt•n(·rous !<iupporl of: thr City of \Vinh�nhur,
Friend< of the Kunsthallc \Virnenhut; l'i:tkral Office of Cult<II'C Swittal:md,
KuhurstiJiung Wintnthur, Migms Kuhurpnnrtll. and 7.icgkr Druck- nrrd Vcrl<�f,"H\C.
{) 20 I I
Elmas Deniz, K.l)kcn Ergnrr, Olh•cr Kiclmay<·r. Ian Whit<'
All rights rtsCJ"\'Crl, iududiug the right of rq>roduttion in whole or in part in an)' form.
Primrd in Gl'rJn:my
ISBN 97H-:l-9.'>2:H:H-2-U
Kunsthalk- Wint<-rthur
nf:lrktgas.st• 25
GH -- 8·100 Wimt·rthur
www.kun.sthallcwintl·rtlwr.rh